WERA is trying to get CCS to go along with them and implement a transponder system for next year. As a CCS rider I think this is what we have been looking for. I would hate to do an occasional WERA event and get to use a transponder but still have none for CCS.
So lets bug Kevin Elliott about something that will do everybody good this time!
Yes to transponders!
Is that whay you had in mind? ;D
i like the idea of having transponders but i am to slow for them lol
It was in the works, I believe. But I haven't heard anything more. It's just a matter of cost. Even then, at the Team Challenge events, the girls doing the scoring have been utilized with the transponders, but they hade more consistency than the transponders.
We were issued transponders last weekend at Willow Springs for all events. We were told that they were going to be used all next year, as well. Except for the stupid nylon pouch, I think they worked out well. I would prefer to use the AMA-type bracket-and-clip arrangement, as that's a lot more convenient, particularly when running multiple bikes.
I ran an FUSA weekend last year and they used the clip type transponders. Oh well the holes are already drilled so whatever happens happens.
CRA runs with transponders. Does anyone know their program is set up?
For CRA you get a transponder asigned to you at tech. There is a $10.00 fee added to your races for the transponder. It's in a bag that you have to zip tie to the rear of the bike. You must return them at the end of the weekend or you will be fined $50.00. I think that GLRRA used to use transponders also, but they were owned by the racer so there was no fee or penalty.
Thanks Edgar. :) :)
As I understand it, there will be a $5 fee added to races.
From there, it's all up in the air, I believe. But it seems like it will happen.
cmra uses DB transponders for the endurance races and they are great
but they tried using the clip on ones early in the season and it was a disaster.
I notice that DB makes a system to do lots of bikes and the transponders are less then $200
What's the advantage to having a transponder anyways?
The only reason I'd want one is cuz they look kinda cool on my bike, and you can get postings of you lap times. Those aren't very good reasons, especially since I have a laptimer. I don't know if "looking cool" is worth the trouble.
So what's the other advantages?
Along with the scoring crew, transponders help reduce scoring errors.
Additionally, if we'd like to do gridding based on practice qualifying times, it could be done. I think that should be the way that ULGP should be done.
Unfortunately the transponders in all their greatness are not that accurate from bike to bike. They have proven to be very accurate on lap times but when you look at placement on the bike and the size of the "pick-up" they are not that accurate in telling who crossed the finish line first. But they can get a close aporxiamte of what the finish order was or even an exact finish order if bikes are sec or so apart maybe closer if the transponders are mounted in SAME location on same bike model.
YES to transponders :D
YES
Ok, I'll let everyone in on the trick.
Example. In SCCA, you have to run transponders. And you have to buy your transponder at the cost of almost $400. Then, I believe that you are responsible for it's care and feeding (charged?). Break it, buy another one. So, what do you say to the guy that comes to your local Learning Curves School for one-hundred whatever dollars expecting to race. Now he has to buy a transponder?
So, CCS is looking for a way to get the program going without costing the riders a great deal of money up front. Honestly, CCS needs more riders. This would not help.
QuoteWhat's the advantage to having a transponder anyways?
The only reason I'd want one is cuz they look kinda cool on my bike, and you can get postings of you lap times. Those aren't very good reasons, especially since I have a laptimer. I don't know if "looking cool" is worth the trouble.
So what's the other advantages?
lets see you lap a guy and then after the race look at the finish standing and come to find out the guy finished right behind you ?? or you didnt pass him and they score him ahead of you ?? hmmm
with a transponder he would show down a lap and be placed properly !!!
i saw this at VIR with the people doing the scoring ., !! humans can loose track or miss a bike..
plus if there is a red flagg it does not take 20min to regrid everyone., they have the sheet almost instantly..
it has alot of benefits ., i believe they should be included in the fees though,.,. i would not want to have to buy one ,.,.
Word is that our entry fees are going up $5 per race entry. Hopefully, this is to pay for the transponders.
Does anyone besides me think that $225 is a bit much to pay for four (3 + 1 with a purse) races? Let's see. With twin sprint weekends, figure 20 x $225. That's $4500 for the regular season, and doesn't take into account that there will probably be "special" pricing at certain tracks like Road America.
Of course we'll also be looking forward to TWO drives to Omaha this year instead of one, and a trip to Sweet Home Alabama as well. This is getting too damn expensive.
Chris
Just out of curiousity - what would be your tire bill for the same races? How about your travel? Crash repairs? Gasoline?
Complain about all of those as well while you're at it. Sanctioning bodies are nowhere neart he profit levels of the tire companies. To actually hit the realm of good business people we should be charging 50-100% more than we currently do.
This is a hobby, we have to charge you money to provide you a place to enjoy your hobby. Ifyou can no longer afford your hobby then maybe you need a newer, cheaper hobby. Hell, I never could afford it which is why I cornerworked and officiated to enjoy my hobby...
SD...The guy with the hundred dollars that wants to race won't last anyway. At best he would help subsidize the track for the racers a time or 2. NO big loss.
If Kevin or Sean start showing up at the track in their own personal helicopter, after flying in on their private jet, than I'll start to look at my track fees a little closer :) Although, not to stir up a hornet's nest or anything, but CCE's Financial Statements do seem pretty healthy lol.....
This is a hobby, we have to charge you money to provide you a place to enjoy your hobby. Ifyou can no longer afford your hobby then maybe you need a newer, cheaper hobby. Hell, I never could afford it which is why I cornerworked and officiated to enjoy my hobby...
Gosh. I was wrong to bitch about how much racing costs. Your condecending tone has really made me see the error of my ways. Just for the record, I cornerworked and officiated for fifteen years before I took my riders school. Now that I've won six championships and earned a top five at Daytona, perhaps I should just take up knitting. As it is, the three jobs that I have to work in order to afford this 20K a year hobby/habbit are really making me tired. Perhaps if you worked three jobs then you too would be able to whine without cause about how much racing costs. Gee. Do I seem a little offended by your attitude? I'm sure that's an inappropriate response...
Chris
Perspective from me...
In 1987, it was $30 for the first race, $20 for the second, and $10 for each one after. My GSXR750 cost $4200 retail off the show room floor. Race fees went up that year. Tires were about $180 a set.
I remember that I think you could race all the races you wanted to for $200 in 1991. In 1993 when I won nine championships, entering nine classes cost around $300.
But, the tracks cost more because of the sound problems brought on by people that move their residence near a track. Like complaining about the smell when you move next to a pig farm.
And then there is the insurance. Insurance for my program has basically doubled from 2000 to 2002.
Yes, the cost of entering races suck$. Is it their fault? No. Too many races? Maybe for us in the MW/GP/GL region. Nine to ten races would be good. thirteen to fourteen? Ouch...
Quote
Yes, the cost of entering races suck$. Is it their fault? No. Too many races? Maybe for us in the MW/GP/GL region. Nine to ten races would be good. thirteen to fourteen? Ouch...
I agree. Knowing that we cannot afford to make them all, it's a struggle to figure out which ones we are going to attend.
Dawn
I believe that it diminishes the competition during the season. Rather than have ten really good guys going at it for eight races, you end up with fewer. Who can financially survive the season? And with the overall championship being decided by the most points from all classes... Same thing again.
This brings up a point.
I saw your region's tenative schedule and I can sympathize with you Middle Americans. That's a lot of races to afford.
But here's my dilema.
Here in the Southwest they say that the Firebird course is our home track. Yet, the very first race, a double point race, is 10 hours away in California. I have to attend if I'm to contest for any kind of championship (double points). And then there's the quantity of Firebird races. For being our "Home Track", you would think that we would have more races there besides 4 out of 10. Sheeeesh, I just started and I think I'm going bankrupt.
I'm taking donations, 'tis the season. Fa la la, la la and all that.
We have that too.
But to make it more fun...
We have two events that are part of the NRRS/FUSA series. So, $125 for your first race and then $50 for each one after. Oh, but you get a free gate pass...(how about a reach around....LOL! :o)
But it's really the insurance that has hurt this all. Too many lawsuits, too much money. I can sympathize with someone, but I'm not worth $100 million dollars to my family. Yes, I will be misses, as would my wife or my kids, etc., but the extraordinary amounts?
If you put hot coffee cup in your lap, you will get burnt. Have a nice day :).
If you break into someones house and then slip on the floor or the garage door comes down on you after you raped and maimed everyone...that's called poetic justice. Severe jail time should follow where you spend years breaking rocks with a sledgehammer.
Oops, off topic...
oops
Dave you forget with the combined NRRS/CCS rounds you get day of practice also.
SO normal 4 races/wkd with practice day and gate
65+45+30+30+125+20= 315
NRRS/CCS wkd 4 races
125+50+50+50=275
hmm seems cheaper to me but my math is not to good
::)
bring on the transponders. i hope they start using them. add 5 bucks to the fee. shit, they will do it anyway so we might as well get something for it. loudon uses transponders for their events. its nice to see your own improvement. not only do i race against 45 other people out there but i race against my self. there is no good reason not to have them. unless you want betty lou and her sisters to try and remember who was in what position while they were filing their nails. ;)
Quoteunless you want betty lou and her sisters to try and remember who was in what position while they were filing their nails. ;)
Hey! Gee thanks for appreciating their effort. ::)
Those ladies scoring sit out in the blazing sun, in the cold damp weather and the rain just so we know how we did. And most of the time they get the order of the finish correct.
Walk up and thank them sometime, I know they would appreciate it.
Dawn
Chris - I'm sorry if reality isn't pleasant to you. People whining about a minor increase in fees when they are obviously willing to spend a lot of money on other parts of this sports bothers me, and it should. Why should the sanctioning bodies always bear the brunt of the whining when prices go up? You wanna bitch about a $5 increase - email me, I'll gladly give you the numbers for the tracks and the insurance company.
And guess what else, pissing you off because I have a bad attitude really doesn't bother me - wanna know why? Because I'm right, if I had to guess that's probably what really gets you doesn't it? It is nothing more than a hobby, and I personally would hate to see any of my friends that I've made in this sport go totally bankrupt doing what for them is just a hobby. That is stupid. If you can't afford it - don't do it. Simple no?
YES !! we need them things would be so much smoother and less arguing = more racing
;D
QuoteDave you forget with the combined NRRS/CCS rounds you get day of practice also.
SO normal 4 races/wkd with practice day and gate
65+45+30+30+125+20= 315
NRRS/CCS wkd 4 races
125+50+50+50=275
hmm seems cheaper to me but my math is not to good
::)
Eric:
Our math in the midwest is a bit different...
Practice at BHF is only $75 plus a gate fee of $20 normal spectator fee for the weekend is $30.00 so:
75+20+30+65+45+30+30= $295.00
The combined event at RA has some different rules and is considered a spectator event. So my spectator fee is $50 vs. $30, plus since my husband runs HW sportsman on his SV and that class is run in conjunction with the Thunderbikes we get to pay an additional $25 for that class. So:
125+50+50+75+50= $400.00
Just some clarification on Dave's point.
Dawn :)
Even then, at RA with the extra practice day, riders were lucky to get three laps in during a practice session. Try to make a change? You're done. It was a waste of money. I entered races for practice. That is dangerous.
QuoteEven then, at RA with the extra practice day, riders were lucky to get three laps in during a practice session.
Hey SD, I have to correct you here. Once, I got four laps in one of the practice sessions. Then again, they must have gotten confused at the tower ;D
Hey Dawn, I love your "midwest math" theorem. ;D
You know most people who invent new math get Chairmanships of Ivy League Math Departments and grants and stuff. Who knows, maybe you will too ;) Northwestern is Ivy League quality AND in the Midwest, along with U of Chicago, Washington U....
Here's my math, and I'm only stating my opinion not attacking anyone for theirs:
If anyone doesn't feel that Road America is (400/295) 1.35 times a better track and experience than BHF, then don't go!
A repaved BHF will be nice and certainly a great time...but RA is a World Class track. I for one am willing to pay 1.35 times more to run on it and make a world class track in the Mid-West a viable operation.
World class track will be Barber's.
But the costs will be the same as going to Blackhawk.
Wait and see...
World Class...WSB went to Brainerd several times. The track is much nicer today that what it was back then. Laguna? Neat place, but I always used Blackhawk gearing there. Sears Point. Now that's a track.
Also look at the cost per mile of racing/practice rather than laps. With RA being so doggone long there's not much anyone can do but cut the actual lap numbers.
Barber will be interesting since it costs 10k per day for just track rental. I'm sure Kevin's hoping for the same thing I am - a large enough turnout to pay the bills... Right now the whole thought of it is scaring the crap out of me. On the other hand - there is no way to truly describe the track, there is nothing that even comes close to comparing in the US.
QuoteHey! Gee thanks for appreciating their effort. ::)
Those ladies scoring sit out in the blazing sun, in the cold damp weather and the rain just so we know how we did. And most of the time they get the order of the finish correct.
Walk up and thank them sometime, I know they would appreciate it.
Dawn
i do appreciate what they do, dont get me wrong. but if it comes to either having the transponders picking up positionns or people, id prefer the transponders. also you might have noticed the wink i put after that sentence since i was mildly joking. ;D
Those ladies scoring wouldn't have to suffer so much if we had transponders. It'd all be a LOT easier on the scorers.
QuoteEric:
Our math in the midwest is a bit different...
Practice at BHF is only $75 plus a gate fee of $20 normal spectator fee for the weekend is $30.00 so:
75+20+30+65+45+30+30= $295.00
The combined event at RA has some different rules and is considered a spectator event. So my spectator fee is $50 vs. $30, plus since my husband runs HW sportsman on his SV and that class is run in conjunction with the Thunderbikes we get to pay an additional $25 for that class. So:
125+50+50+75+50= $400.00
Just some clarification on Dave's point.
Dawn :)
Dawn you are adding spectator fees in there twice and adding a purse paying class. 125 NRRS entry includes practice race and pitpass (gate) not apples to apples comparision now is it? ::) so using your example with a purse NNRS race and a purse race at CCS race
CCS 65, 65, 45, 30, 75, 20 =300
NRRS/CCS 125, 75, 50, 50= 300
So the NRRS/CCS race is same in that circumstance but only when compared to a BHF practice day where a practice at
most tracks and definitely at tracks like RA, DIS, etc is 125 or more.
QuoteAlso look at the cost per mile of racing/practice rather than laps. With RA being so doggone long there's not much anyone can do but cut the actual lap numbers.
Barber will be interesting since it costs 10k per day for just track rental. I'm sure Kevin's hoping for the same thing I am - a large enough turnout to pay the bills... Right now the whole thought of it is scaring the crap out of me. On the other hand - there is no way to truly describe the track, there is nothing that even comes close to comparing in the US.
I've met Mr Barber many times. I haven't been to the track, but I know Bill St John, too, the civil engineer on the project. He's raced in Europe, and he's blown away by it.
Mr Barber's a class act. He doesn't skimp when there is a right way to do it.
QuoteDawn you are adding spectator fees in there twice and adding a purse paying class. 125 NRRS entry includes practice race and pitpass (gate) not apples to apples comparision now is it? ::) so using your example with a purse NNRS race and a purse race at CCS race
CCS 65, 65, 45, 30, 75, 20 =300
NRRS/CCS 125, 75, 50, 50= 300
So the NRRS/CCS race is same in that circumstance but only when compared to a BHF practice day where a practice at most tracks and definitely at tracks like RA, DIS, etc is 125 or more.
Hopefully this will help:
BHF RA
Practice $75.00 $-
Gate Fee $20.00 $-
1st Race $65.00 $125.00
2nd Race $45.00 $50.00
3rd Race $30.00 $50.00
4th Race $30.00 $50.00
Total $265.00 $275.00
Spectator $30.00 $50.00
Total $295.00 $325.00
or if we count a purse paying class:
BHF RA
Practice $75.00 $-
Gate Fee $20.00 $-
1st Race $65.00 $125.00
2nd Race $65.00 $75.00
3rd Race $30.00 $50.00
4th Race $30.00 $50.00
Total $285.00 $300.00
Spectator $30.00 $50.00
Total $315.00 $350.00
I understand that other tracks are different, I was just sharing our experience in the midwest. I included my fee also because how many don't bring thier significant other?
Dawn
Quotei do appreciate what they do, dont get me wrong. but if it comes to either having the transponders picking up positionns or people, id prefer the transponders.
Yes, it would be nice to let the scorers take a break during the race, but it won't happen. Like any piece of technology, transponders or scoring systems occasionally break down, and you need a backup. Two years ago at Summit Point for an endurance race, the system missed a couple laps on several bikes. They had to go back to the handwritten sheets to verify the finishes. And yes, the difference was changing who was on the podium.
Yup, always gotta have a backup, it would be irresponsible not to - however the transponder system is getting better every year.
I had a couple of glitchs as we got going with it - every single one of them caused by me or in the case of the Summit Point race we discovered that Compaq computers and the AMB system do not paly well together. Somehting in the Compaq system will occasionally block the signal coming in from the transponder decoder box (Iasked for a ring but no go).
Anyway, the newest generation of decoder boxes will store a huge number of laps for long as it has power - which means you have plenty fo time to either reboot the computer if you get the BSOD or to even hook up another computer if necessary. It then just checks the lap it's on against the results in the ocmputer and adjusts as necessary. Pretty doggone cool if you ask me.
The only issue is that without accurate placement of the transponder itself with regard to the front edge of the front wheel it cannot do line calls. However, there are always more than enough humans around the start finish to cover it. It would waste too much time to mandate the measurement and enforce it. Easier to just watch the line when necessary.
QuoteHey! Gee thanks for appreciating their effort. ::)
Those ladies scoring sit out in the blazing sun, in the cold damp weather and the rain just so we know how we did. And most of the time they get the order of the finish correct.
Walk up and thank them sometime, I know they would appreciate it.
Dawn
you are correct !they go through alot sitting there ! but they are human and can and do make mistakes ..
As long as they are AMB, and CCS posts times, I'm all for them!