Motorcycle Racing Forum

Interesting...
http://roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=41496 (http://roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=41496)

Quote from: Jason748 on August 05, 2010, 11:02:02 PM
Interesting...
http://roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=41496 (http://roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=41496)

So we link up Friday night at BHF instead of Thursday night, Jason?

Quote from: backMARKr on August 06, 2010, 12:49:30 AM
So we link up Friday night at BHF instead of Thursday night, Jason?

Would you two take the planning of your sexual encounters to a private chat please!   :spank:

As a 20 year veteren of the racing series across the us I first want to say the CCs series and the Midwest saftey crew are the best in the world.... you will not find any better... i have watched the decline of participation on the grid and we as a whole can not complain....... in order for for the CCS and us as a whole need to promote from within ..... the economy has been tough on all of us but in order to build we must bring new talent to the track.... we all know people who would like to be part of this sport..... bring them out..... i quote Rick Brewer " 2% of the american people ride motorcycles ....... 2 % of that 2% race motor cycles its up to us to build this series. .........AMA Who?.... Lets go people bring people in and lets move on........

Quote from: Burt Munro on August 06, 2010, 12:55:32 AM
Would you two take the planning of your sexual encounters to a private chat please!   :spank:

I knew that was the wrong thing to say as soon as I wrote it...... :banghead:

You racing at BHF this month, Mark?

Quote from: Racer510 on August 06, 2010, 07:47:20 AM
You racing at BHF this month, Mark?

Jamie

No...School starts that week and we are gonig to the GP in Indy the following week and Gateway is the week before. Only so much time and $$$ to go around.

Planning to come up for the September round.

I will get a hold of you when it gets closer.

Mark,
I got the ol yellow diesel out the other night and dusted her off and gonna see if she's track worthy. Even drove it around town in race trim.

Well as a normal Sunday only competitor - doesn't affect me much other than the breaks between races....going to be a busy day

Thunderbike, F-40/Femmoto and then LW F-40 back-to-back-TO BACK... then sit around until the very END of the day for SuperTwins??!?  I don't like to complain but I think they could have done a better job of splitting things up as they squish 'em all in.

Quote from: backMARKr on August 06, 2010, 01:43:30 AM
I knew that was the wrong thing to say as soon as I wrote it...... :banghead:

Rick's just jealous...  You can still pitch you tent across from us  :lmao:

Well this really sucks, i dont really care about getting rid of friday practice but to do all the races in one day is not a good idea, i now will have 10 races in one day and 2 of them are gt races, puts alot of races back to back to back to back, who needs to practice all day on saturday, have practice in the am on saturday and ealrly afternoon and still race saturday afternoon, if that does not happen then i will be thinking of canceling some races and now ccs has lost even more money

Quote from: racerhall on August 09, 2010, 10:08:15 AM
Well this really sucks, i dont really care about getting rid of friday practice but to do all the races in one day is not a good idea, i now will have 10 races in one day and 2 of them are gt races, puts alot of races back to back to back to back, who needs to practice all day on saturday, have practice in the am on saturday and ealrly afternoon and still race saturday afternoon, if that does not happen then i will be thinking of canceling some races and now ccs has lost even more money

Ditto!!

I'm not racing nearly the amount of races you and jason are doing...I have no desire to run a bunch of back to back races...I think I'll be canceling a couple of races also. 

Quote from: DanO966 on August 09, 2010, 10:18:52 AM
Ditto!!

I'm not racing nearly the amount of races you and jason are doing...I have no desire to run a bunch of back to back races...I think I'll be canceling a couple of races also. 

Well there goes any chance at making any contingency money of which keeps me going to the next race.
If CCS doesn't change this schedule it might be over for them for the rest of the year.
There is no point in my racing if there is no contingency money to be made. If we are not riding then there is no point in the tire vendors wasting their time coming to the track since there will be no sales and it not worth their time. If there are no riders then there are absolutley no fans to watch any races.
Gron4 will have nobody to take pics of and the list goes on and on.

CCS? You know the golden business rule right?? 20% of your customers bring 80% of your $$ right??
If you take Brian, Ortega, myself and a couple others, of which enter a large amount of races and we fold.... There is no series!! If there are less riders then the current contingency companies will not payout anything. Brings us back to the no reward thing for our results. The tire guys will have hardly a point to come to vend tires. They barely make enough money toto turn a profit as it is.
If I don't get any contingency $ from tires there is no point to me riding period.
I think CCS should leave it the way it was. At least for the Red Flag event also!!
I'm seeing a low turnout for the Red Flag fund as many riders are pissed and might not even show up what I'm told.

I planned on bringing family & friends to watch this next weekend but it hardly makes sense if it is all in one day. I can't even take a damn piss between races much less even acknowledge that my friends & family are even at the track to watch me.

Just wait for the first red flag incident when I lap a first time amatuer and scare him right off the track. Not fun for anyone.

Hello Jason,

You know the biggest rule in business? You have to make more than you spend and 275 entries doesn't come close to paying the bills.  I'm not any happier about this than you are, but I can't afford to shell out $10,000 more than I take in at every race.

You talk about needing contingency money to keep going, we need entries to keep going and they just aren't there right now.  The first race this year at BHF did okay with 450 entries and 500 gate passes but July's race with 275 entries and 300 gate passes was the worst it's been in 25 years at BHF. With even fewer pre-entries for August than there was in July we had to do something.

And this goes beyond the Midwest region too. Mid-Atlantic is averaging 600 entries still but 2 years ago it was 800 entries. Florida was 600 entries two years ago and now it's 400. Loudon used to be 900 entries two years ago and now it's barely 600 entries. And if you think it's the organization, you only have to look at WERA's numbers. Two years ago they averaged 470 entries per Sportsman race, they are currently averaging 359. There is not a single area in the United States that is seeing an increase in motorcycle road racing numbers. (Don't even get me started about track days.)


It is unfortunate that you, Brian, Dan and other riders who have supported us are going to have to cut back on the number of classes you run but we understand completely that you can only physically do so much in one day. Some of you remember several years ago when I talked about the fact that since we were growing in numbers, we didn't have to raise prices to CCS races. Well when that stopped, we have been in a never-ending battle with the budget ever since. The bottom line here is that we either went to the one day schedule or just cancelled the season, so I chose to keep the series going  rather than abandon those who have supported us for all these years.

You as racers get to vote with your entries on whether you support this organization. I hope that you stay with us and help us get through the next couple of seasons by doing whatever it takes to keep the Midwest region alive and racing.

Thanks to all of you who support CCS racing.

It will be very interesting to see the numbers for the track/practice day vs CCS races that weekend.

Track days are killing road racing. Just my .02 cents.

Kevin,

Thanks for the reply.
I understand your point and its obvious as to the reasons that shortening the race weekend is occuring. I'm just trying to do damage control and keep it from getting any worse.
Is there anyway we can use Saturday to practice in the AM and race partly in the afternoon like on Friday at Road America?

There is quite a debate going on about trackdays causing a reduction in road racing.
On thing is always go back to is that the population is growing, manufactures sell more bikes today than were sold in the 80's / 90's I believe. So you would think that would equte to more racers right?
Its getting worse though.
There are a ton of people at track days currently.
Maybe the problem is that there is not enough training classes happening with the trackdays to convert those track day riders into racers.

I asked a customer of mine who is a new track day rider why he doesn't try road racing? You know what the answer was? He was going to get his feet wet at a couple more track days then maybe do the race school.  I told him to remove the pacifier & start racing. He is now signing up for the learning curves school in August at Blackhawk.  I'm not sure what to do to get more riders to jump off the high dive and start racing but I'm thinking all day. Just give me a few hours.

so what is being said is that no you cant have practice for 3/4 of saturday and 1/4 racing on saturday and the rest on sunday

I still disagree with you guys..I do not think track days are taking away from racing. I think the lack of funds due to job reduction or loss of job has alot to do with it and it may not be the racer themselves it could be there spouse that has lost income. I know a few from our area that this affects, either that or injuries have taken a roll. We( the Mcra) have been turning out new racers. I bet atleast 50 a year get there license through our clinic, now coming out of our area i dont think thats a bad number, plus we do everything we can to pump them into our track weekends. There are so many riders out there that are just dump to the idea and dont even have a clue of how to start.

Now I can see CCS stand point on cutting back, I know how much it cost when we do the events here at gateway with all the expenises. Our club is a non for profit also and if there no money in the jar we can not host any events. If we had a track turn out like HPT had it would put us right in the grave..If  our trackdays that we have had would have not been so good we wouldnt be able to fund the racing end of it, so its a trade off.

Hope to see you guy aug 14-15. Word is theres a few fast guys comin out of retirement aiming for the track record

I've got to side with the race organizers on this one. It is a business for them even though it is a "racing club" for me. For you racers that are pulling entries, I am sure the loss of entry fees don't make up the deficit of renting the track for an additional day.

As a new rider I found that the all day Saturday practice was beneficial and still is now. it allows me time to learn the track, and then opportunities to learn suspension set-up and the changes it makes through practice. Of course I don't race as many races as you folks do so that schedule works for me. At most I will race 4-5 races for the weekend but mostly I race 2 races. I race instead of track-days just because I feel more safe riding with racers that I know.

I do believe the decline of racing participation has been affected by the track day orgs not because they don't have the race school. Here is florida it took some time for the track days to catch on and now there are three or four organizations. I don't know how CCS can keep going when less riders are content in riding track days. CCS offers so much more and to me is safer than track days. CCS offers supplemental medical insurance, first line EMS coverage at every race, a corner worker for every corner, and unsurpassed experience as compared to the track day orgs. I am sure WERA is probably the same.

If I don't race and do track days instead, I don't get contingency and for the most part is more expensive to do a track day as compared to my racing budget.

Mark

Ok everyone.
Lets do our best to promote CCS Road Racing for the weekend of August at Blackhawk Farms.
I'm tired of seeing these low # of entries at Blackhawk and the Midwest races.
If we are going to make our series any better its time we get other involved in our sport. Spread the word.
Lets try to make this next weekend a great one. Get these #'s up so we can have a full 2 day event for the last Blackhawk event.
Make it your job to get a buddy to start racing instead of track day riding. So them the other side of riding on the track.
There are plenty of track day riders to go around that will keep holding their daddies hands and not step up.
Racing is a blast. Lets keep this sport around for many years to come!

I need more rich slightly crazy friends......

Jason if you've got ideas feel free to share, I've got a pretty good realtionship with a local dealership and might be able to hang a few bits in he shop or such if I ask nice.....

Well, the wife won't let me race.  I have seen friends get married and their new wife flat out makes them sell the motorcycle or basically makes them feel so guilty they can't take it and sell it anyway.  My wife lets me have a bike for the street and another for track days, so all and all it isn't so bad.  Maybe, just maybe if I go crash free at track days for a few years, I can talk her into letting me run F40 and/or LW F40.  Almost two years since my big crash at Blackhawk Farms, so maybe if I stay crash free through 2011 as well, it will be time to ask.

Although racing is expensive, that is not what is stopping me from moving over from track days.  But I agree with others, you really need to figure out how to get the young guys out there, not old timers like me.  A successful AMA Pro racing series with at least a couple of rounds on Network TV / ESPN would probably help build the excitement for road racing, but unfortunately that is out of the control of CCS.

Quote from: 2blueYam on August 10, 2010, 09:50:01 AM
Well, the wife won't let me race.  I have seen friends get married and their new wife flat out makes them sell the motorcycle or basically makes them feel so guilty they can't take it and sell it anyway.  My wife lets me have a bike for the street and another for track days, so all and all it isn't so bad.  Maybe, just maybe if I go crash free at track days for a few years, I can talk her into letting me run F40 and/or LW F40.

"My wife allows me to do this and my wife does not allow me to do that" that is embarrassing I feel sorry for guys like you. She must keep your balls in her purse. Take em out and go racing.

Quote from: Team Spalding on August 10, 2010, 10:42:57 AM
"My wife allows me to do this and my wife does not allow me to do that" that is embarrassing I feel sorry for guys like you. She must keep your balls in her purse. Take em out and go racing.

HAHA that's what I was thinking. 
People are always looking for the easiest way out of stuff.  The simple easy excuse,  easy just blame the wife....LMAO

People get on it.  Just come out and race. 

If you're curious why 20 yearolds don't show up and race...tally up your race weekend expenses and ask yourself if you could afford that when you were 20.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/youth.nr0.htm

Quote from: Team Spalding on August 10, 2010, 10:42:57 AM
"My wife allows me to do this and my wife does not allow me to do that" that is embarrassing I feel sorry for guys like you. She must keep your balls in her purse. Take em out and go racing.

Honey, the bike was here before you, and it'll be here after you. Get used to it.

Quote from: 2blueYam on August 10, 2010, 09:50:01 AM
Well, the wife won't let me race.  I have seen friends get married and their new wife flat out makes them sell the motorcycle or basically makes them feel so guilty they can't take it and sell it anyway.  My wife lets me have a bike for the street and another for track days, so all and all it isn't so bad.  Maybe, just maybe if I go crash free at track days for a few years, I can talk her into letting me run F40 and/or LW F40.  Almost two years since my big crash at Blackhawk Farms, so maybe if I stay crash free through 2011 as well, it will be time to ask.

Although racing is expensive, that is not what is stopping me from moving over from track days.  But I agree with others, you really need to figure out how to get the young guys out there, not old timers like me.  A successful AMA Pro racing series with at least a couple of rounds on Network TV / ESPN would probably help build the excitement for road racing, but unfortunately that is out of the control of CCS.

I can understand your point but I dnon't necessarily agree with it. growing up in the '70s racing on TV was non existant but racing still peaked my interest. I never did go racing until turning 40, and yeah broke my first bone.

My wife tells me to get back on that horse. She plainly states that it would be like imprisoning me if she would put those limitations on me. Both my wife Nancy and I work for a first response EMS department and we tend to see things a little different than most. We live life to the fullest and this is something that brings me joy. In turn Nancy enjoys our horse and yeah, there are many that have been hurt and even paralyzed after falling from a horse. If she did fall from the horse and hurt her hip I would tell her to get back on that horse before making a final decision to not ride.

Before there were track days there was just racing. If you wanted on the track you got out there with your racing gear. Since the advent of track days, there is less of a desire to do racing. It is the rider's choice but I believe more in the racing even if I am the last guy out there.

Mark

Quote from: alexm on August 10, 2010, 11:58:37 AM
If you're curious why 20 yearolds don't show up and race...tally up your race weekend expenses and ask yourself if you could afford that when you were 20.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/youth.nr0.htm

I certainly couldn't do it when I was 20. Now I have introduced my sons into riding and racing and they continues to when they can. They race on the beloved FZR400 and the racing expenses are low. $130 for all day Saturday and 1 race Sunday or add on another race for a total of $185. There is the gate fee for $30. Tire cost is pretty low with a total of 130 laps on a set, averaging 2-4 weekends of life. Fuel for the bike is 7-8 gallons @ $3 per gallon to a total of $24. So it is conceivable to have a weekend cost $400 because I am already going and trailer the bikes there. Add contingency to the mix and the cost can be lower. Use Continental tires for their contingency and place in the top five and you get contingency. If you are the only amateur and you win you still get the contingency with Continental. It can be done but probably not on a 600 and more likely on a SV650.

Mark

Quote from: J Farrell / Speed Tech Motorsp on August 09, 2010, 06:20:42 PM
Ok everyone.
Lets do our best to promote CCS Road Racing for the weekend of August at Blackhawk Farms.
I'm tired of seeing these low # of entries at Blackhawk and the Midwest races.
If we are going to make our series any better its time we get other involved in our sport. Spread the word.
Lets try to make this next weekend a great one. Get these #'s up so we can have a full 2 day event for the last Blackhawk event.
Make it your job to get a buddy to start racing instead of track day riding. So them the other side of riding on the track.
There are plenty of track day riders to go around that will keep holding their daddies hands and not step up.
Racing is a blast. Lets keep this sport around for many years to come!

As a newer trackday rider I can tell you that a majority of the people I meet at the track have zero intentions of trying to race.  My mentality is a little different and I want to race.  I entered a few CCS weekends in the late 90s just to have fun. 

Now that I am back on a bike I want to race again.  Right now I am contemplating doing LCR, but again the trackday vs racing mentally came into play.  I can spend $165 and get 8 - 20 minute sessions, or $200 and ride 3 times on the track and get a race license. 

Quote from: CCS on August 09, 2010, 03:31:43 PM... with 275 entries and 300 gate passes was the worst it's been in 25 years at BHF.

That was before my time...

Also important to note the cost of the race tracks and insurance has really gone up.  Those entries were less expensive than today, but the current difference really doesn't reflect the increase in those overhead costs of the past ten years. 

If one looses money on every race one puts on, one can not make up for it by just putting on more races...that loose money... 

unless it would be operated by government...:( 

Quote from: ChitownNexus on August 10, 2010, 02:21:55 PM

Now that I am back on a bike I want to race again.  Right now I am contemplating doing LCR, but again the trackday vs racing mentally came into play.  I can spend $165 and get 8 - 20 minute sessions, or $200 and ride 3 times on the track and get a race license. 

It is the complete opposite here in Florida where with a race weekend we get 7 sessions on Saturday and a couple more on Sunday with racing. for a paltry $130 if I do one race or $185 for two races. I guess it depends on where you are and what is available.

A MW BFR Round for the now old 2 day format is something like three 20 min practice sessions and x number of races you buy into - so with the gate fee (no hauling it there etc) bare minimum is $105 for the 2 days in race fees...not exactly breaking the bank on that end, but the equivalent track time as an average track day (3 group format, 7 sessions @ 20min each) would put you around $270 for the same track time (1 race is about the same as one 20min session basically - just way more fun from my point of view)

still not breaking the bank.....it takes the 2 days to get the same time in as 1 track day but meh call that part a wash

The arguement that track days are killing racing is both ture and untrue in my opinion.  When you are the only game in town...well people don't have a choice, but when there is a choice we have to figure out how to actually attract more folks to racing rather than track days....here in lies my quandry - how to get more to chose racing over track days (i know which one I'd pick every time...and yes it comes with a clock...)

Quote from: twilkinson3 on August 10, 2010, 10:50:36 PM
..here in lies my quandry - how to get more to chose racing over track days (i know which one I'd pick every time...and yes it comes with a clock...)

From a mental stand point here is an interesting thought regarding what you said.  For people considering racing the amateur class is their first step.  A quandary would be that if I enter my GSXR600 in MWSS I am racing the same Control Riders/Coaches that are teaching me at track days.  Now I am not knocking CR/Coaches who are amateurs since I am friends with several of them.  I am just stating something that makes the step from track day rider to "racer" a more difficult one to make.

I am not bothered by it and already warned two of my friends who CR and race 600s to be prepared for my slowness if I enter a race they are in.  :) :P

--

Also after reading through some of the CCS website I see that the license fee is prorated as the year goes on.  If I understand it right the license cost right now is $35 less than if purchased earlier in the year.  With that said, does LCR lower their price from $200 to $165 since part of that is supposed to include your race license?  It would only seem to make sense.

Quote from: ChitownNexus on August 11, 2010, 12:40:40 AM


Also after reading through some of the CCS website I see that the license fee is prorated as the year goes on.  If I understand it right the license cost right now is $35 less than if purchased earlier in the year.  With that said, does LCR lower their price from $200 to $165 since part of that is supposed to include your race license?  It would only seem to make sense.

As the license is only good for a shortened part of the season, it makes sense to pro-rate the cost, however, does the value of what you learn in the licensing clinic depreciate in value depending how late in the season you attend? Nope, so it doesn't make sense that the cost be pro-rated.

I think he was saying if the beginning of the season price is $200 and includes the license fee when we hit the prorated portion of the year it might help to prorate the portion that includes the license fee - I don't remember the class including a licese tho (but hey I'm old and it's been a couple years....)

Twilkinson.... this is not about comparing track time. It's about racing and not racing.

Trust me, the shorter time in a race will teach you more than double the time during a track day. Control riders are just that control riders, they are not instructors. Unless you are attending a school.

You can ride around all day at track days and not really learn anything, you are just riding around. Track time does not automatically convert to learning.

Get into some competition though and guess what? Your learning curve goes straight up. But, you won't know that until you try it will you?

And, you don't believe track days affect racing orgs?  Look at BHF alone 20 track days that I know of. That does not include private rentals by dealers, clubs etc.. Compare that to 5 race weekends.  Seems a lot of riders have the $$$ for track days but not  race weekends. You don't need to enter every race your bike is eligible for, just enter one race a weekend and see what happens to your riding skills. You also need to remember you are practicing with racers, not other track day riders on a race weekend.

Quote from: twilkinson3 on August 11, 2010, 10:52:06 AM
I think he was saying if the beginning of the season price is $200 and includes the license fee when we hit the prorated portion of the year it might help to prorate the portion that includes the license fee - I don't remember the class including a licese tho (but hey I'm old and it's been a couple years....)

Yeah, it includes a license, but I think there's already a built in discount. Interesting question though. Maybe Ricky can answer it.

Gordy, I agree that racing improves your skills and can teach you a lot about riding. However, trackdays aren't going away, so there's going to need to be a different business and marketing model to attract new riders into the sport.

Obviously the money is out there, or people wouldn't be riding at all. Right now, Blackhawk is doing a stellar job of promoting their track day events. If CCS (and other racing series) is to survive, they are going to have to listen to others (as you've said in the past), to find out what the racers want from a weekend and perhaps find new strategies to attract riders into the racing community.

We've got a new economy we're dealing with and as racers tend to turn over every 2-3 years, it may take a while to rebuild the rider base to sustainable levels. 

Quote from: spyderchick on August 11, 2010, 11:14:54 AM
Yeah, it includes a license, but I think there's already a built in discount. Interesting question though. Maybe Ricky can answer it.

Correct.  That is what I am asking.  :)

I'm not looking to stir the pot on this forum.  Instead I am just trying to give an outsiders perspective of a track day rider looking at doing some racing soon.  The ideas thrown around about having a new racers class to enter is intriguing.  From looking around at other organizations, several of them offer a class like this for new guys/gals.



Hopefully I will meet more of the people on here soon.

Oh I'm with you on that weggie, I can speak from personal experience on the race and get faster big time front - the clock bit was a reference to I'd go racing over track days every time - probably could have been clearer

I think Alexa said what I was trying to get at better so...what she said

Quote from: ChitownNexus on August 11, 2010, 02:48:47 PM
Correct.  That is what I am asking.  :)

I'm not looking to stir the pot on this forum.  Instead I am just trying to give an outsiders perspective of a track day rider looking at doing some racing soon.  The ideas thrown around about having a new racers class to enter is intriguing.  From looking around at other organizations, several of them offer a class like this for new guys/gals.



Hopefully I will meet more of the people on here soon.

We could use a little pot stirring every now and again.  :biggrin:

C'mon out to Blackhawk the weekend of the 21st/22nd. You can meet a lot of regulars at the Red Flag Fund Auction Saturday night, including a bunch on the forum. You might even find some stuff at the auction that you'll need to go racing!

So the snowball of financial impact keeps rolling and growing.....

Got confirmation today that I'm only needed by CCS for Sunday's race day with the 1 day schedule.  Not a big deal if I lived closer to Blackhawk.  5 1/2 hrs away makes it a tough call and a financial loser.

May make it tougher to find people to help run races if people can't cover their costs to get to the track and I already camp to keep the cost down.  Not crying about it - just stating the economic facts of the current race environment.

Almost seems like you make the racing a track day and the track day a race.... Less racing, but better payout, and more track riding for those not wanting to race. If you can't beat the track days, join them, but put on show while you are doing it for those who want to race.  A track day/racing event where the race is kind of a show for the track day people and regular spectators. 

I don't know. Just thinking out loud.

so add to the list a "we like burt" fund...and so the races keep running smoothly...a cornerworker fund, etc etc

so ok now I'm getting depressed, I'm on year 2 racing wise...really want there to be a year 3.....and 4...and....

Quote from: motomaniac on August 11, 2010, 08:00:13 PM
Almost seems like you make the racing a track day and the track day a race.... Less racing, but better payout, and more track riding for those not wanting to race. If you can't beat the track days, join them, but put on show while you are doing it for those who want to race.  A track day/racing event where the race is kind of a show for the track day people and regular spectators. 

I don't know. Just thinking out loud.

Yeah, that was might thought some time ago on a three tier system.  You're covering two.  The third tier would be to bring in the honestly new riders into racing with a limited opportunity rather than placing them in the current "amateur" crowd with control riders and track day guys and five year amateurs with ten years of experience at a track. 

the track days are not the problem

Brian, please explain your statement.

I'm not saying track days are the sole problem but they certainly add to it to a high degree.

Economy is at fault also but how does that explain the track days? There are guys out there riding at nearly every track day. Add that up and I think you'll find it costs more expensive than 5 race weekends.

for 200 bucks i can do a track day and do as much riding or more than doing a ccs race weekend, a  ccs race weekend is  500 bucks in entries plus tires plus race gas plus hotel if away plus gate fee and so on, what is the result in the end? the same i walk away with nothing for winning races and i walk away with nothing at the end of the day at a track day, at the last track day at blackhawk their was like 150 people and at the last race their was only 85 people or so, i forgot to mention that your trackday guy has a stock bike and i have over 20k ineach of my bikes, i now make nothing back from just about every sponsor, if ccs wants more racers then go to the track days and promote its that easy, track days are cheap risk free easy fun, racing is risky expensive not always fun time, the  safty is the same at both as far as i can see

I'll expand on Brian's end too.

The schedule is more open ended.  So, a rider doesn't have to follow a particular series.  Follow you friends to another place with no regard to points.  Sure, maybe there's a "membership fee" with some, but it is still less expensive than most racing licenses.  Tired of "racing" at one place?  Go be a regular someplace else.  Or travel over the winter.  While "On Any Sunday" one can find someone racing, there can be a track day.  But weekday scheduling for trackdays appear to be bad scheduling opportunities, they are opportunities that a lot of individuals seem to get plenty of time off to do.

Do we need to talk about a lack of rules structure?  Run it!  Pretty much open classed stuff.  No worry about air filters passing tech. 

Sponsorships?  Yeah, so this seems to be an easy one.  No one would get sponsored for a trackday, but there is a market there for some of those regulars and control riders for industry support. 

No, there isn't any press, really, following a trackday.  But there isn't for Blackhawk either.  Compare that to:
Fasttrax :  http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=41551
LRRS...loosing riders, but doing better than some:  http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=41556
CMRA:  http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=41555

Supposedly if you are  caught "racing" your buddy at a trackday it's an automatic end to your day, admittedly not always enforced. Trackdays are siphoning off the riders that used to go racing, note that word RIDERS. If you are a racer and are happy at a trackday more power to you but I'm sorry, I just don't have any fun at a trackday. Sure, I'll use them to break in a motor or get some tracktime to test some new setup but that's only because I just don't have time to do it in 2 10 minute practice sessions at a race weekend.

Are there riders at trackdays that could become racers if exposed to the bug, yes, and they need to be courted but trackdays are not the problem. To boot if Racing continues to bash the Trackday community I can tell you right now who's going to win that fight.

I think you're all missing the main reason. Most people just don't have the expendable income anymore. Most that race are not making enough in contingency money, if any at all, to offset the cost.
I chose to sit this year out due to my son starting his freshman year at a private High School, that after all is said and done, is costing me close to $10,000 a year. I may not race next season either, depending on the economy.
I also have friends that ride track days, and the overwhelming response I get when I try to steer them toward racing is they feel they get more for their money at a track day, track time wise. 

Quote from: racerhall on August 12, 2010, 04:33:10 PM
for 200 bucks i can do a track day and do as much riding or more than doing a ccs race weekend, a  ccs race weekend is  500 bucks in entries plus tires plus race gas plus hotel if away plus gate fee and so on, what is the result in the end? the same i walk away with nothing for winning races and i walk away with nothing at the end of the day at a track day, at the last track day at blackhawk their was like 150 people and at the last race their was only 85 people or so, i forgot to mention that your trackday guy has a stock bike and i have over 20k ineach of my bikes, i now make nothing back from just about every sponsor, if ccs wants more racers then go to the track days and promote its that easy, track days are cheap risk free easy fun, racing is risky expensive not always fun time, the  safty is the same at both as far as i can see

You summed it up pretty well there, that pretty much explains what I'm thinking right now, if I made six figures I wouldn't worry about dropping a grand for a weekend of racing but I don't make that much money and the pay-off doesn't seem worth the costs at this point. But considering what you said, why do you still race as much as you do?

Quote from: R1Racer99 on August 13, 2010, 02:56:37 AM
You summed it up pretty well there, that pretty much explains what I'm thinking right now, if I made six figures I wouldn't worry about dropping a grand for a weekend of racing but I don't make that much money and the pay-off doesn't seem worth the costs at this point. But considering what you said, why do you still race as much as you do?

why do birds fly? ....i cant speak for brian but for me the pay-off is the challenge/satisfaction (and frustration!) you only get from racing. the whole price per lap comparison with track days totally misses the point. thats like saying masterbating is cheaper than sex  :err:

Quote from: motomaniac on August 11, 2010, 08:00:13 PM
Almost seems like you make the racing a track day and the track day a race.... Less racing, but better payout, and more track riding for those not wanting to race. If you can't beat the track days, join them, but put on show while you are doing it for those who want to race.  A track day/racing event where the race is kind of a show for the track day people and regular spectators. 

I don't know. Just thinking out loud.

And I thought I was the only genius. I see this as the plan of the future. Open your business model to bring in this growing community of riders while exposing them to our racing first hand. Their numbers help pay the bills and I'm sure we'll win more converts at the same time.

Look at the Gateway CCS rounds. The Saturday trackday sells out, then the paddock turns into a ghost town for Sunday's races. What if we were able to combine the two days, offering trackday riders a weekend trackday, while mixing in races throughout. We could all enjoy that. We would have to cut the number of classes I'm sure and someone will always complain, but I would rather evolve than cease to exist. We don't need 3 classes per bike, especially if we have some trackday riders picking up some of the tab that less classes to enter may affect. Everyone has their opinions but I would happily pay a LITTLE more for less and longer races. The trackday sessions could fill in between the races.

Quote from: Sobottka on August 13, 2010, 07:59:26 AM
the whole price per lap comparison with track days totally misses the point. thats like saying masterbating is cheaper than sex  :err:

Perfectly said...

Quote from: LMsports on August 13, 2010, 08:27:21 AM
And I thought I was the only genius. I see this as the plan of the future. Open your business model to bring in this growing community of riders while exposing them to our racing first hand. Their numbers help pay the bills and I'm sure we'll win more converts at the same time.

Look at the Gateway CCS rounds. The Saturday trackday sells out, then the paddock turns into a ghost town for Sunday's races. What if we were able to combine the two days, offering trackday riders a weekend trackday, while mixing in races throughout. We could all enjoy that. We would have to cut the number of classes I'm sure and someone will always complain, but I would rather evolve than cease to exist. We don't need 3 classes per bike, especially if we have some trackday riders picking up some of the tab that less classes to enter may affect. Everyone has their opinions but I would happily pay a LITTLE more for less and longer races. The trackday sessions could fill in between the races.

MCRA already does that on saturday, though you will lose a lot of trackday guys who dont want to wait around for the racers. But we put on 2-3 races a day and 7 strong TD sessions and it ends up not being to bad for the track day folks. Much more than that and they start losing tracktime and you start losing customers. If people are ok with traveling for one or two big races then great, but with as many racers that seem to race on the side and whine as a profession, they will complain they cant compete because of bike/lack of classes/ no talent.

Quotebut with as many racers that seem to race on the side and whine as a profession...

this my friend is why I heart you!   :lmao:

yeah the trackday/race day combo is good in theory but it will more than likely boil down to "you cant make everyone happy"

the cost per lap argument SHOULDN'T matter to the racers... thats not what its about (but as been so eloquently put it... to some it is)  However with the TD guys it absolutely will.  You already hear grumblings around the paddock at the MCRA events about "that damn 'try the track'/racer school/race' is eating into MY track time"

to have enough races put on to keep all the classes happy (combine more classes, everyone runs superbike and throw in a nice purse?) AND to keep enough TD sessions available to keep the lappers happy is really going to be a tough one, unless more tracks bring in lighting...

Why is it the tires, fuel, other maintence items never come up in the track day discussions? Do you not need  those things to attend track days? All I hear is $200 for a track day ..........nothing else. But for a race weekend I hear, tires, fuel, gate fees, hotels, etc. etc.

All TD riders need tires, fuel, brake pads, oil, filters, everything a racer needs for a weekend. And, many stay in motels, eat out, etc. So, how is this so much cheaper than racing?

The racers complain that they can't make any money racing...... let us remember this is club racing, it was never meant to be a money making deal. Yes the manufacturers were throwing money at contingency programs back in the late 80's and 90's and early 00's at the hey day of club racing but those days are over.  The economy has tanked and it will be quite awhile before it recovers.

Brian, not pointing fingers here but you state you have over $20K invested in each of your race bikes? Why would you continue to do this when you know there is no support anymore? You knew the economy was tanked  when this season started. It was no secret there were no contingencies to be had this year and every sponsor was pulling back on their support. I've heard of several racers who decided to pull out completely due to this. Riders that actually were making some money racing before the collapse.No sense in spending big money for no return.

Also, I don't see that CCS is the culprit here either. Over the years I have had several run ins with Kevin and crew but this time.... I see it as an economy issue. Sure CCS may be able to make some changes as they just did but, damn, this one is off their back.  CCS does not control contingencies from the manufacturers. They also can't pay prize money if the grids aren't there to help finance it. It's a Catch 22 for them.

Do they need to listen a little better to their customers? Yes, The vote for the ROC venue may be a good point. The vote went to HPT but CCS went to Homestead............???? That is probably due to the Daytona machine owning the track. I'm quite sure there was a bit of influence by ISC to have the race moved to another of their venues rather than somewhere else. If not, then it was a huge faux pas by CCS to ignore the wishes of the riders in this case.

I don't have a dog in this fight, just spewing my little .02 cents in the matter. So, I will  now leave this for the rest of you to sort out. I'll sit here at my computer and watch.

Oh, and I hope to see ALL of you at the Red Flag auction.

Youre not trying to win a trackday. So you dont need fresh rubber, race fuel and the 4-700 race entries arent there either. Just tires and race fuel is going to save a fast race 1000-1500 dollars a weekend depending on how much he is running. Take a guy running like Brian, youre looking at 2-3 sets of tires and at least 10 gallons of fuel. Lets say the fast guy is getting support and is only paying 350 for a set of dunlops late in the year after his alotment is gone, he doesnt have contingency because the grids suck, so out comes the cash. Thats 700-1050 in tires and 250 dollars in fuel compared to 30 dollars in fuel and 0 in tires at a trackday.

Sorry but had to respond to this one.

As a racer, if you're not running fresh tires and using race fuel just as you would for a race weekend you're just wasting your time at a track day. Why would you practice with crap tires and pump fuel? It's a different ball game. Do you actually thimk that pros in any sport practice with less than they use for a competitive event? Especially racers?

And, why would you spend that kind of money for no return? If you can run the same times at a track day (which I hope is the reason your at a track day, to practice your racing at race speed) on used rubber and pump gas, why spend all the money for that on a race weekend? Makes no sense.

Quote from: weggieman on August 13, 2010, 11:37:12 AM
Sorry but had to respond to this one.

As a racer, if you're not running fresh tires and using race fuel just as you would for a race weekend you're just wasting your time at a track day. Why would you practice with crap tires and pump fuel? It's a different ball game. Do you actually thimk that pros in any sport practice with less than they use for a competitive event? Especially racers?

I thought it was common practice for racers to run practice on used tires. At least that's what's being reported all the time in AMA, WSBK, MotoGP...

Example, Ben Spies: "I like to ride on used tires just cuz if you can go fast with 18, 19 laps you know what you can do at the end of the race."

http://www.cornerspeedphoto.com/blog/2009/09/ben-spies-interview-at-yamaha-champions.html

I'm with weggieman (Gordy) & Sabottka on most of this issue.

Plain & Simple Track Days are Track Days & Racing is Racing. None in the same what so ever.

To try to justify why I race to a track day rider is a waste of time most of the time. If you don't have the will and want to better yourself then stay at home on the porch. I don't see motorcycles as a way to get out of the house or a hobby of mine. It's my life.

Most of us "racers" come from the old school of doing it for passion & pride. I wouldn't trade racing for track days ever. I'm not a half ass kind of guy. I want to race, go fast, and figure out how to go faster. My life literally depends on it, I own a performance shop.  Most trackday riders have a very short leash. Their ruler (wives - g/f) usually has a choker on them of which keeps them only doing track days. Their passion is their family and they are not from the true "racer" family. How you can tell? Watch a guys pit. See if he even has his wife / gf helping him out. If your family is not involved in it like you are you most likely won't be around long.

Racing take a lot of hard work and yes money too. Just think of it in other terms like being in a rock band. The local cover band does it for fun but most never make it to the big time because of sacrifices they won't make. Bands change members constantly due to one of them finding a woman at local bar they were playing at and now she whips him.  :spank:
The rest of its members are left trying to limp along and find another dedicated player until another member gives up to the easy life.

Doing anything for a long time with many sacrifices is not easy. Its only the strong that survive. So any rider that has a girl that has stayed by their side thoughout the racing I applaud them, you got a keeper.

I have a lot of things to say about this topic. I will need some time to spend tonight to elaborate on those things. I have some good points I believe. I'm 34 yrs old. Have been racing for 30 years and road racing for 16 years now. Own a performance shop, run a race team, am currently leading the Midwest & Great Plains Championships, broke 2 track records this sesaon, finished as high as 7th in AMA Formula Xtreme & Supersport, raced at this years World Supersport Race in Miller, been a control rider, trained road racing skills at my shop, been to prison for trying to fund my racing the wrong way. Trust me I've tried many avenues. I don't claim to be a know it all, just love racing & learning from my mistakes. I've been through much and would like to help in anyway i can.

Gordy, Jason said much more elaborately what I said earlier. While a racer will need good tires to test at a trackday MOST trackday riders are not racers. Many of them ride stock bikes with plastics (hell a lot of them ride their street bikes with the lights taped), they will run a set of tires for most of a season and have a blast riding in a way that they cannot on the street. This goes back to what I said earlier, there are a lot of trackday riders, probably most,that have no desire to race, then there is that handful of racers that the sport needs to find a way to get from trackdays to the races. This is why I say that the trackdays are not the problem, the biggest problem is the fact that many current racers can't afford to keep racing let alone the younger riders that can't even afford to get started, the economy has made this fact even worse. This is not CCS's fault or anyone elses for that matter, Racing is expensive and that is getting worse every year.

Now it would be nice to see CCS take a page from the other motorsports programs and find more effective ways to limit the prep costs. I realize that will come with a price tag, namely enforcement, but if the sport is to survive at the club level then it has to be done. It's fine for guys like Brian and Jason to campaign $20k to $30k bikes at the top level but there should be several classes where someone can ride a $4k to $5k bike well and have a chance at being competitive. That is what the SS classes were supposed to be but right now the way the rules are written those classes don't work.

CCS isn't the only problem. Read all over the motorcycle racing news and you will see that all the series are having low attendence.
I'd be racing AMA like in years past but its only more expensive to do that than in past seasons. The contingencies are non-exsistant.
Plus there is no sponsorship tire deals in AMA now that it is all Dunlop tires. When you add up the cost of AMA it is ridiculous what the expenses are.
I make more in rewards at CCS races than AMA and that isn't much at all either.

Times are tough and people are scaling back. With these hard economic times, CCS does need to change their race format. I'm riding the same bike in nearly every class and can win them all at a track like Blackhawk. My bike is exactly the same for every class.
Maybe less classes with longer races & more payout from the manufactures contingency? Should make for bigger grids in each class. It will make the points system much better for the overall championship since there are less races it won't just be about who has more $ to enter more races.

Quote from: J Farrell / Speed Tech Motorsp on August 13, 2010, 04:17:41 PM
Maybe less classes with longer races & more payout from the manufactures contingency? Should make for bigger grids in each class. It will make the points system much better for the overall championship since there are less races it won't just be about who has more $ to enter more races.

I like that idea, why have so many classes when almost everyone is using one bike anyway?

At least with my idea the track day people can actully say they are going to the races.. LOL!

Anyway, yes everyone will loose extra classes to race. But they could also participate in the track day sessions too.  Kind of like hoe the Unlimited Gp race was the last race of the day and everyone with all kinds of bikes raced it to Win the $200 purse... No contingencys back then either.. Those were the days.. We should look back to that.

Quote from: J Farrell / Speed Tech Motorsp on August 13, 2010, 01:04:34 PMMost trackday riders have a very short leash.

I'm gonna have to object to blaming the wimmenfolk for the Problems With Racing.

I mean I get it, and I get that I'm maybe objecting because I'm an exception to the rule, but I'm pretty sure that racing isn't failing because of a bunch of Yoko's breaking up the band.

(I also, I object to that analogy since in my former life I had a lot of involvement with musicians, and this was very rarely the problem with bands. With musicians, their biggest downfall is their own egos.)

Were racers not married/partnered "back in the heyday"?

I'm not saying that it never happens, because it very clearly does, but I would venture to guess that the biggest problem by far this season as to why *racers* aren't racing is #1 Money. No money, no sponsors, no contingency.

Yes, it does cost less for a racer to do trackdays. Why? Because most of the racers I know who do trackdays are Coaches or CRs who don't pay for entry, and if you're there as a Coach or CR, you're not there to lay down the fastest laps you can, you're there to help other people. (Unless you're out playing around in an A session, but even then I think the fastest laps are typically on race day - please correct me if I'm wrong) I've heard a few racers who coach trackdays end up complaining that it ultimately slows them down because TD's are run at a different (slower) pace.

The others will do a trackday here or there for shakedown or setup or to hang out with friends but the whole purpose and focus is ENTIRELY different from a race. It's not treated the same way. You don't change tires 3 times or use race gas. You use the shagged out tires from the last race weekend.

I also have to object to the idea that trackday riders aren't trying to go faster or improve. I've never met a single person at a trackday who didn't have *some* sort of goal or interest in bettering themselves as a rider.

Top three reasons people give me at track days as to why trackday riders don't race:
1. Too expensive.
2. Not fast enough.
3. Too dangerous.

I think it's unfortunate that people don't realize that there's fun to be had on a decent sized grid in the back with other people running your pace. I'm obviously not going to win a race unless I'm the only one there and very well might be an amateur forever, but it's super fun when there are people around to chase and catch.

I would also venture a guess that for trackday riders, questions of health insurance, and what will be covered weighs heavily as well. It's much easier to excuse an injury in a non-racing "teaching" environment than it is to talk them into covering $100K+ of expenses due to racing. Again, health insurance is 100% the reason why we've been on the track exactly ZERO times this season, for races or trackdays.

Anyway. I hope CCS weathers the storm and makes it through.

Trackdays may be killing racing, but given that for me, and a few other people I know, we wouldn't be racing if it weren't for trackdays, I don't know how much it balances out. Maybe more racers should go to trackdays and offer to mentor new riders and encourage them to race? Blaming trackday riders for killing racing isn't going to endear them to the idea of joining in.

Here, we are for the most part, preachers and choir.  If we want to save the sport, we all need to get the word out, in a positive manner. 

There is NO feeling in the world that equates to those final heartbeats between the "2" board and the green flag.  NOTHING comes close (well, for me anyway).  To have been able to experience that intensity, that rush... doesn't matter if you are a Jason/Brian/DanO or the resident backmarker :) - it's something EVERY racer has the privilege of knowing. 

And you'll never get that feeling at a track day or anywhere else.

I sure hope that we will have a 2011 season with CCS.  If each of us could get just one trackday rider to sign up for Learning Curves and do one race weekend... 

Truckstop:

My rant was about a way of life that is needed to excel at anything you might have a passion for, be it racing / band member / olympic swimmer / etc.
Any lifestyle that pushes you to be the best possible at your sport will take some massive sacrifice to do it.
Most people have too many other outside influences to keep you from excelling to your fullest potential such as a wife, kids, an ill family member, job, bills, etc all these equal FEAR.
Basically put I'm saying that trackday riders are just trackday riders. They would like to live the dream but can do it to the fullest due to Fearing that they might lose something else or whatever.

Responsibilities = Fear. I'm not saying that I have no responsibilities. What I have learned is that Fear is what gets you hurt on the race track. What you fear will always come to get you because that is where your concentration is at instead of making it or accomplishing something. There is only one way and that is making it.
Most track day riders have too much to risk in their minds, if they crash & wreck their bikes or hurt themselves. But what they fear is what gets them hurt. If you have 100% support by your side during racing you can go much faster.

Track day riders ride to have fun and I'm sure some track day riders have never had so much fun in their lives doing anything else. Track days are not killing racing. I never said they were. I'm just trying to explain what it takes to be a racer like myself or others.

Everyone looks at life differently. I guess I'm extreme in racing. My life revolves around racing & motorcycles. I have no kids I'm responsible for or a wife. I do have a great girlfriend.

FYI= It cost me more to do a track day that I get in free for. Try taking off of work on a Wednesday & lose money at your business. I make no contingency money for my track ride. I get no quality go fast time with riders in the way. I burn up tires & fuel. I risk crashing into riders that are at a slower level than me. I fear that when I pass a 1000cc track day rider on my 600 on the brakes that he will try to follow my line and take me out.
I understand the risk it takes to ride a bike. I won't ride my bike unless all the bolts are checked every time I take to the track. So give myself some peace of mind I have to bring a bud of who I pay to check my bike over and make sure things are good.
Brian Hall also has that guy, its his dad. He checks his bikes over constantly and that is worth a lot of money he didn't bring up.
To do those things you gotta bring your full race setup of tools & equipment. Generators, tire warmers also.

I laugh when I go out on the track at track days and watch riders never check air pressure, bolts, fuel, oil level, brake pads, etc.
The reason most track day guys fall is due a problem on their bikes. They always blame something or someone else. I'm honestly scared and put myself at risk when I ride trackdays while being on the track with riders who don't check over their bikes.
I see more guys crashing in weird ways at trackdays then races more often.

I go to track days to help riders get faster and I tell you it frustrates me when most of these riders don't have the passion for that sport like I do. I mean come on you gotta check your air pressures!
Ever ask a track day rider what his sag is set at? Typical answer= no. what is that. How do I do that.
It even happens at races but a whole lot less.

The reason the fast racers go fast is because of checks and balances of doing things right. Skipping nothing and leaving nothing to guess. I've been around Blackhawk what over 5000 laps at least but I still write what I'm doing wrong down on a map.

I always repeat this line my dad once told me when I was young. He said you can go just as fast if not faster then your competition. Its all about how bad do you want it. If you lost. I guess you didn't want it bad enough. Time to try harder.

I have many friends that are track day riders who in my eyes will never be good racers even though they want to be. I have other friends who don't want to race but I know would do very well.

Track days are NOT I repeat are NOT killing racing. Its the economy that is putting a Major damper on racing. This economy problem is putting a lot of FEAR in to people that would normally try racing. Most riders or potential racers are already spread thin $ wise and only have more fear if they wreck their bikes or get injured and can't work.  CCS neecs to think outside the box and change their series a bit to keep it alive until the reccession passes if it ever does.

Thanks for the clarification Jason. I'm in agreement with most of what you're saying.

I agree with this 100%:

Quote from: J Farrell / Speed Tech Motorsp on August 14, 2010, 12:16:48 PMTrack days are NOT I repeat are NOT killing racing. Its the economy that is putting a Major damper on racing. This economy problem is putting a lot of FEAR in to people that would normally try racing. Most riders or potential racers are already spread thin $ wise and only have more fear if they wreck their bikes or get injured and can't work.  CCS neecs to think outside the box and change their series a bit to keep it alive until the reccession passes if it ever does.

FWIW I was also responding to other stuff in the thread and I wasn't directing my whole post at you. That wasn't very clear.

I think it's awesome that you're giving up time to help at TD's by the way. Enthusiasm for the sport can be contagious, and I believe it's more effective to encourage as you're doing, than to take the attitude of "Us v. Them".

I think you're right about the expense for someone at your level of investment in the sport that it's not cheaper to do TDs. I'm coming from the point of view of a backmarker amateur and a husband who is a mid-pack expert. We aren't earning sponsor money or contingency most of the time anyway, and get paid vacation days, and while we still have to pay for fuel and tires and consumables and it's not *free*, it's certainly less expensive for us than racing, and costs less than the people who attend the TD when you're not paying entry fees.

On the topic of bike prep and knowledge, I haven't been around that long, but have heard a lot of stories about how the Learning Curves classes were WAY more scary 10 years ago. Most people doing it now have track time under their belts and seeing someone out there who is completely lost is a rare occurrence now. So I'm pretty sure there are lots of people who spent their first race season learning about suspension and tire pressures. Nobody comes to the track with instant knowledge whether its trackdays or races. It might take TD riders longer to figure it out though, and understand the frustration after the 100th time you've asked someone if they've checked tire pressure and they say no.

But again, I think we're on the same page, or at least we're reading the same book. Even though my perspective is just a little different being less experienced, and not fast, nor super competitive.

On a related note on the racing/track day discussion...

This Saturday I am actually free and want to get some riding in with my track only GSXR600.  I can sign up for LCR or Motovid runs a track day as well on Saturday.  This just adds to what I was saying earlier...For $200 or less I get 7-8 session with Motovid or $200 for LCR ride barely 3 sessions.  I realize there is classroom time, but this leads me to believe CCS should partner with a group like Motovid to offer race licenses as well. 

Motovid's site says Brian Hall helps out at these Rider Clinics.  So my point it how much different is LCR in reality?  At these Motovid Rider Clinics, they go over the flags and go more in depth with actual riding technique.  The only thing that separates LCR is classroom sessions on rules and regs of racing and the mock race.

How difficult would it be for CCS to partner with someone like Motovid to offer a more full track licensing experience?  In two sessions with LCR I can't imagine people are going to learn a ton and the 3rd session is the mock race. 

I do believe if through Motovid or other track day organizations a person could somehow obtain a CCS license you would see an increase in racers.  If you combine that with some type of class that is more restrictive or a beginners racer group you could see an increase in entries.

Why not a Sportsman type class where mods allowed were simple like gearing, pipe, Power commanders, stock engine, but stock suspension?   If part of what you want to do is attract track day riders I would say that would be a good suggestion.  Most track day guys, like me, ride stock suspension bikes with basic modifications.  WIth a class like this we wouldn't feel like we have to spend a ton of money on forks, shocks, and engine work.  We may not run an entire series, but a bunch of people could be signing up for random weekends to get their feet wet. 

This is not to say LCR is bad, but I think maybe the actual licensing process could also be revisited. Just some of my random thoughts. 

The Motovid fee includes more personal instruction, while the LCR Clinic provides you with the licensing to compete. Two different animals.

FYI: Mike Casey (Motovid/Blackhawk Farms) works and partners with Rick Breuer (Learning Curves) at these events.

If you are free Saturday, definitely come out to the track and stay Saturday night for the Red Flag Fund auction. We'd love to see you there!

Quick answer....

1.  Licensing clinics that are accepted by the major Midwest racing organizations (CCS, WERA, CRA, CMRA) require classroom instruction as well as on track sessions.  There is also a test that must be passed to show that you know the basic rules of racing.  This program is designed to help keep you from making a stupid mistake that might injure you and/or the other people on and around the track.  Motovid operates Track Days - not race clinics. (see correction below)

2.  The Learning Curves course includes the cost of your race license.  The cost of a race license varies from organization to organization and is discounted as the season progresses since it is only good until the end of the calendar year. Motovid does not and cannot include a race license because it is not a recognized Licensing clinic.
(see correction below)

3.  Many tracks and some Track Day organizations offer track days that are open only to licensed racers and/or offer discounts off of the fee for the track day to licensed racers.

4.  Having a race license can save you money off of when and where you ride track days even if you don't intend to race.

Motovid Track Days and Learning Curves Race clinics are two different things entirely even though the price may be the same.

Correction: After looking at the blackhawkfarms.com website I need to make a correction.  Motovid offers 2 types of track days - All Level Track Days and Riders Clinics.  The Riders Clinic can be used to obtain your CCS race license and differs in cost from the All Level Track Day.  Scheduling of All Level Track Days is separate from Riders Clinic dates.

What Rick (Burt Munro) said.

Oh, and the Test and Tune day prior to a race event is different than the normal track days that are held at Blackhawk during the rest of the year. <wink>

Please pardon my ignorace but ( didn't read the whole thread), are test and tune days for racers only, as opposed to track days for everyone?

Noid,

From blackhawkfarms.com/trackdays.cfm (http://www.blackhawkfarms.com/trackdays.cfm)

"Pre-Race Test Days
Blackhawk Farms offers test days prior to SCCA, CCS, and NASA events... come practice our course before you compete! Test days are open to drivers with current competition licenses only."

grr,


Racing does NOT have to be that exspensive.

I raced all of '08 on the top 5 racers' take-offs, ran them backwards so there was more rubber on the right than the left, and Sill got a 2nd overall in the MW in Unlimited Superbike on my stock '05 600rr with well over 16,000 miles on it while almost 10,000 of that was on the track. I ran pump gas, had a map in it that was a hodge podge map, borrowed used brake pads, and used every trick fellow racers (mainly X) were willing to share in order to get the best out of what simpleton stuff I had. No hotel rooms, camping is free at BFR and staying in your trailer (if you have one) is free at most places too. All you need is an air matress. Heck, I even slept in the seat of my vehicle a few times just to race and save money.

in '09 I had the same chain and sprockets from '08 and was still running others' take-offs and used brake pads. Dropped my times from 15's to 14's and did some dips into the 13's on used shit! It's not that hard for crying out loud.

Then for my dropping out weekend this last may I decided to FINALLY buy some new tires from Dustin (who thought I'd NEVER buy a new set!) and ran a Stellar weekend for my Family and friends that came to watch/ help. Actually I was fortunate to Always have my family and friends, and after '08 (my wife), to help me out before my races and after my races with anything I needed if I asked. Running new tires was sure nice after years of running take-offs but it only helped me drop another second and stay in the 13's while still playing it safe.

On the track I have only crashed twice. In '07 and from my own stupidity. That's twice since '04 which is the first time I set rubber on the track. I'm a conservative rider/racer. And all that would like to join the Racing part of the whole shindig should acknowledge that.

Racing is NOT dangerous unless you put yourself into them situations because of your ego. same goes for trackdays too. As Kenny Rogers said in one of his songs,,, you have to know when to hold them, know when to fold them, know when to walk away, and know when to run.
Top 5 guys are runners. They run for the money like it's no tomorrow. But I bet you a million dollars, that I'll never have, that I got the same satisfaction they got when I went out and battled it up with my 'like' competitors race in and race out.
it doesn't matter what place you start out in, race during, or end up in. When you dice it up and it's safe and courteous it's the Most fun you'll EVER have on the track!

I have dozens and dozens of pictures of fellow racers and I giving each other high fives on the cool down laps because we fought it out and it was MORE than worth the money put into it.



But.... then there comes a time Life out side if racing.
I am now not racing for many many reasons. Safety, money, risk are not any of them.
The past 4 years I have spent almost ALL of my vacation time going to the track. Whether it be for trackdays, video biking/instructing/cr'ing days, or racing days. makes no difference. I LOVE the track but i also love life and VACATIONS. Vacations with the wife and kids. Vacations exploring the outdoors. Vacations going places I've never been before with the woman I love. So on and so forth.

I can't do them both. At least not right now.  Someday there will may be a happy medium between spending time/ money/ and vacation time at the track vs. using time/ money/ and vacation time going on vacations but for now it's "time out" for the track.

It really sucks seeing what's coming around after the last weekend I raced in May because that weekend i had the Time of my Racing life and the turnout that weekend was Awesome compared to some of the others!
I just hope that all of you die hards keep on keeping on so that when I am able to come back for the onsies and twosies there will still be a place to come back to!
A place I used to call home.

Quote from: Burt Munro on August 16, 2010, 10:16:44 PM
Noid,

From blackhawkfarms.com/trackdays.cfm (http://www.blackhawkfarms.com/trackdays.cfm)

"Pre-Race Test Days
Blackhawk Farms offers test days prior to SCCA, CCS, and NASA events... come practice our course before you compete! Test days are open to drivers with current competition licenses only."

So it's a yes, as like all practice days B4 a race day at most tracks unlike Gateway. Ok...

In March a bird shit on my shoulder and warned me of this.....  in May at the races this little birdie gave me two middle fingers.......so right back at you birdie!!

Jim is done racing... Retired.... Fin....And after the way we were treated at the track in May, I have no desire to even do so much as trackdays at BFR and do not blame Jim one bit for not wanting to race there anymore....

so for the birdie...

I was asked by a number of racers, racers that wont race Midwest safety crew staffed races because they no longer feel safe, to head up a new safety crew organization that offers better trained safety crew at no charge to the track or race organization. I had the financial backing to boot. I finally agreed to do it and within 15 minutes of agreeing to form this new organization, I got a phone call telling me to vacate the idea immediately or I will be banned from CCS events, BFR and RA.  The caller also laughed at the idea of anybody doing anything with CCS... "quote.... the fact that you plan to do anything with CCS is a joke considering they are not going to be around much longer, be suprised if they make it to the 2011 season" unquote... I quickly vacated the idea for the sake of my husband. As he was being punished for my words. The entire thread in which this all took place was moved out of the public eye, the next day I was informed by the site owner that BFR/Motovid requested access to the private section of the site or face the backlash.  BFR is now has full access to this site, and the thread in mentioned above... locked

In March I was personally informed that there  is a 90% chance that there will be no CCS at BFR in 2011.... although there is a chance that there will still be racing at BFR, take a wild guess at the name of the organization that will be heading this up...

so CCS is losing racers for a couple reasons IMO...

1.) because of trackdays...... it is cheaper
2.) some racers do not feel safe out there anymore
3.) I hate to say this, ( I luv you Jason, Brian, Dan and Ron.. and other top guys) BUT, you guys really pushed out alot of people... You have alot of money to race, alot of money into your bikes, and your FAST! It is no fun to enter a race you know you don't have a chance in hell of winning or even getting a podium in... You guys have been on top for a long time... While new blood would be AM some day they are going to be EX.  what is the point of paying all that money to race if you can't come close to being competitive because you have an older stock bike and make 30K a year.

Brian, Jason, Dan......Sorry... ( please do not be offended)  you guys pulling out might actually help CCS because that means other people have a chance to win for once in those 10 races. You guys need the conting money to race, what do you think the rest of the racers need to race?  There really is no interest in spending $85.00 to get your ass handed to you...

The economy tanked.... the poor man can't win.... so don't race.... do trackdays and save a ton of money to get nothing more then track time......  

You guys staying in club racing so long really has contributed to people doing  trackdays ( same experience, lower price, no humiliation of getting lapped) and not racing..

You guys have the speed, talent and the money to go AMA and leave club racing... so why do you stay? Easy wins? Cheaper?

What about recruiting riders for your selves and teaching a noobie to be fast like you guys. pay for half or maybe even a full weekend for them? Ya know... be the sponsor instead of looking for the sponsor?

I love watching you fast guys race don't get me wrong. so no offense to you guys or anything.... I am just giving you my 2 cents as a spectator

Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing about our country.

Unfortunately, along with that comes the liability of having to read some articles that are completely out of touch with the real world.

I'm sorry.

unfortunately proof does make it the real world Burt.  And there is plenty of it  :thumb:

I do agree though that there is no one specific reason for the short comings.... It is more a combination of the right wrong issues.  and everybody needs to do things to improve the status of CCS everywhere. New  crowd of people, new organization personnel, new safety crew, new racers,new track personnel..... the whole scene needs change.

truth is if things do not change there is not going to be CCS racing in our area. If we want to keep it, we need to do what ever it takes to make it happen. And it is sad that the people who are very prominent  and respected figures at BFR  trackdays are the ones most eager to see CCS go.


and why is CCS not paying for podiums?  Jim is still waiting on his winnings from May and Jason to the best of my knowledge is still waiting on his winnings from July.  :wtf:

And a huge thank you to Claudia for getting Jim the correct award at the end of the race weekend in May.  They gave Jim the wrong award for the TC and all the pictures taken by CCS/ASRA and GRON4 are also with the wrong award.

Jen, I'm going to respectfully disagree with you about the fast riders staying in racing causes others to not compete. I never expected to compete with the fast guys when I was racing, rather, I was out there for the thrill of competition, and would make sure that when I did get lapped, I was not a hazard. Then I would go and talk to the experts and ask them to evaluate what they saw out there in race conditions, what I could improve upon concerning my skills, and if I needed something for my bike, they would help on a moment's notice.

Rhiannon started a short time after I did, and learned to respect the experts until eventually she became one, then went on to ride the national series in both ASRA and WERA, (even got a few podium finishes) and earned her AMA license. Competition is about competing, not always about winning. It depends on where you fall within the spectrum.

For Brian, Dan, Jason, et al, they aren't going to get a nationally sponsored ride, so they compete where they can, at the club level. They're good at it because they put everything into it. Brian has the money to do it, sure, but he's also reasonable about what he throws at it. Dan and Jason don't have Brian's checkbook, so they make it work in other ways, through networking, promoting themselves and borrowing or begging. Fortunately, they were all blessed with skill and determination. I don't understand why you think they should not compete. Where would they go? It's really taxing to campaign an entire year in the AMA, so they do selected events, as do a good number of the regional fast guys. A regional club series is ideal for their needs.

Each year I hear that the fast guys shouldn't cherry pick, and that the slow guys shouldn't be out there. Pick any reason you wish to make these arguments. I say unless they are unsafe, club racing is exactly where they belong. If you eliminate the top tier of racers, you eliminate some damn good competition for no reason, if you eliminate the back-markers, you eliminate the future of the sport. So how are the guys in the middle going to be able to support that portion of the money and potential profit that any club series would reasonably expect to enjoy?

Robert Jensen got out of racing because he said there wasn't any money to be made. He should know, he was the master at working the circuits to be able to compete and make a living at it. That means that the top guys this season aren't making anything back at racing. So why do they do it? For glory? Maybe. For the chicks? I think most of them are already hooked up. So it has to be for the love of the sport.

As far as contingency, it's thin everywhere. It will take a few more years to get it back to where it was in the past. Let's face it, we're in a different economy. Is racing in jeopardy? Most likely not. Is it at a low point? Yes. We need a new business model. As I've said before, trackdays are not going away, so there needs to be a new strategy for moving riders into the fold of the race community. It will happen. Most racers only compete for 2-3 years, and some come back after a hiatus as they miss it. Racing offers some unique experiences that cannot be captured by a track day. That should be the focus of bringing new riders into the sport.

I'm sorry to hear Jim is done. Perhaps in the future he will come back. We wish him the best.

Quote from: riderupred on August 17, 2010, 12:10:47 AM
It is no fun to enter a race you know you don't have a chance in hell of winning or even getting a podium in... You guys have been on top for a long time... While new blood would be AM some day they are going to be EX.  what is the point of paying all that money to race if you can't come close to being competitive because you have an older stock bike and make 30K a year.

 There really is no interest in spending $85.00 to get your ass handed to you...


teaching a noobie to be fast like you guys.

i may be mildly out of line because this was my 1st race weekend but i had a damn blast and didnt even come close to winning a race.

jason has been awesome with helping me get to me races, and this weekend brian damn near told me how enter and exit every corner at gateway.

my only issues i had this weekend was the heat on saturday and some control rider trying to yell at me because she thought i was someone else.

I don't care who else shows up, I'm going racing as long as there is a series and I can afford to do it!

Quote from: riderupred on August 17, 2010, 12:10:47 AM
I was asked by a number of racers, racers that wont race Midwest safety crew staffed races because they no longer feel safe, to head up a new safety crew organization that offers better trained safety crew at no charge to the track or race organization. I had the financial backing to boot. I finally agreed to do it and within 15 minutes of agreeing to form this new organization, I got a phone call telling me to vacate the idea immediately or I will be banned from CCS events, BFR and RA.  The caller also laughed at the idea of anybody doing anything with CCS... "quote.... the fact that you plan to do anything with CCS is a joke considering they are not going to be around much longer, be suprised if they make it to the 2011 season" unquote... I quickly vacated the idea for the sake of my husband. As he was being punished for my words. The entire thread in which this all took place was moved out of the public eye, the next day I was informed by the site owner that BFR/Motovid requested access to the private section of the site or face the backlash.  BFR is now has full access to this site, and the thread in mentioned above... locked

In March I was personally informed that there  is a 90% chance that there will be no CCS at BFR in 2011.... although there is a chance that there will still be racing at BFR, take a wild guess at the name of the organization that will be heading this up...

so CCS is losing racers for a couple reasons IMO...

1.) because of trackdays...... it is cheaper
2.) some racers do not feel safe out there anymore
3.) I hate to say this, ( I luv you Jason, Brian, Dan and Ron.. and other top guys) BUT, you guys really pushed out alot of people... You have alot of money to race, alot of money into your bikes, and your FAST! It is no fun to enter a race you know you don't have a chance in hell of winning or even getting a podium in... You guys have been on top for a long time... While new blood would be AM some day they are going to be EX.  what is the point of paying all that money to race if you can't come close to being competitive because you have an older stock bike and make 30K a year.

Brian, Jason, Dan......Sorry... ( please do not be offended)  you guys pulling out might actually help CCS because that means other people have a chance to win for once in those 10 races. You guys need the conting money to race, what do you think the rest of the racers need to race?  There really is no interest in spending $85.00 to get your ass handed to you...

The economy tanked.... the poor man can't win.... so don't race.... do trackdays and save a ton of money to get nothing more then track time......  

You guys staying in club racing so long really has contributed to people doing  trackdays ( same experience, lower price, no humiliation of getting lapped) and not racing..

You guys have the speed, talent and the money to go AMA and leave club racing... so why do you stay? Easy wins? Cheaper?

What about recruiting riders for your selves and teaching a noobie to be fast like you guys. pay for half or maybe even a full weekend for them? Ya know... be the sponsor instead of looking for the sponsor?

I love watching you fast guys race don't get me wrong. so no offense to you guys or anything.... I am just giving you my 2 cents as a spectator

i've never heard from somone that they quit racing because "they dont feel safe out there anymore" ...its always money or family.
you say " It is no fun to enter a race you know you don't have a chance in hell of winning or even getting a podium in..." but everyone does have a chance, all you have to do is get to the line first. if it wasnt brian, tommy, dan, jason or whoever, it would be someone else. the beauty of racing is that it can be you, everyone does have the same chance but only the cream rises to the top.  the point of spending all that money to race these guys is to race them and beat them, its not supposed to be easy!

I'm going to resist the rest of my comments, but do want to address this:

Quote from: riderupred on August 17, 2010, 12:10:47 AM
The entire thread in which this all took place was moved out of the public eye, the next day I was informed by the site owner that BFR/Motovid requested access to the private section of the site or face the backlash.  BFR is now has full access to this site, and the thread in mentioned above... locked

I'm not sure what website you're talking about here, but let me just state that it's not this site (ccsforum.com).

Quote from: Sobottka on August 17, 2010, 01:05:55 PM
i've never heard from somone that they quit racing because "they dont feel safe out there anymore" ...its always money or family.

I'll throw in my $.02 here. 

I hung up my leathers in 2007 to pick up the Red Flag Fund.  I knew I couldn't do both successfully and wanted to make sure the RFF had the attention it needed to begin.  I fully intended to come back.  However, after being away, I don't see myself ever coming back, and safety DID have a part in it.  It had nothing to do with the safety crew in general, but the very real physical risk began to outweigh what I was getting out of it.

In the end, I say that I raced for 7 years, improving every year, and got out of it before I was bankrupt, divorced or maimed/dead, and I will carry that through my life as a successful racing career.  That, however, is my PERSONAL experience and risk tolerance.  Others obviously vary.

So was my getting out for money, family or safety?  I contend it was all of them.

jeff- what you say here totally makes sence. what riderupred said "dont feel safe out there anymore" makes it sound like the safty crew is no longer providing adaquate safty and people are quittintg because of it. this i dont agree with.

Rob.  Totally agree...  and I've never heard anyone quitting because they felt the safety crew was inadequate...

Now, there are trackdays that I would never consider attending due to safety factors, but that would really take this in another direction.. LOL

SO.... just to try to steer this back on the original target ... what are we the racing community going to do to increase the grids?

I'll say it a gain I've got cantacts in some places that might let me post up some racer propaganda or some such - who's got ideas on what that could entail, and to Alexa's point what has to change business model wise to keep us afloat till the economy recovers (and if we do nothing but survive till then we'll still be here...)

You can post up whatever you want, but honestly the only way that is going to impact the grids is if you manage to generate a sign contract with someone who needs money to race. 

The economy is the primary issue here.  As people who have managed to continue racing, you need to understand that with a smaller turnout, the whole show is going to get smaller.  The weekends (perhaps classes and formats, etc) will be revised to make the events sustainable. 

This isn't rocket science.  It just takes some creative thinking and flexibility and willingness/support from the racers.

Quote from: Jeff on August 17, 2010, 01:09:03 PM
I'm going to resist the rest of my comments, but do want to address this:

I'm not sure what website you're talking about here, but let me just state that it's not this site (ccsforum.com).

No it is not this website. I will not mention the site that it is on, but the people who know me definitely know what site it is on. The members of this  un named site that this thread is on also make up at least 5% of race entries at BFR  used to be closer to 10%, but make up at least 50% of the trackdays at BFR and the percentage of trackday guys is growing fast.

Quote from: Sobottka on August 17, 2010, 01:05:55 PM
i've never heard from somone that they quit racing because "they dont feel safe out there anymore" ...its always money or family.
you say " It is no fun to enter a race you know you don't have a chance in hell of winning or even getting a podium in..." but everyone does have a chance, all you have to do is get to the line first. if it wasnt brian, tommy, dan, jason or whoever, it would be someone else. the beauty of racing is that it can be you, everyone does have the same chance but only the cream rises to the top.  the point of spending all that money to race these guys is to race them and beat them, its not supposed to be easy!

that is the problem though....many people do not have the money to put into there bikes like these guys do... most guys have one bike.

I never said any Jason or Dan have Brian's checkbook.. Brian is a very blessed man financially. Jason and Dan work there asses off between races.... but both have very good paying jobs and paying sponsors.... Tommy does not race anymore.... But he too owns his own repair shop like Jason...Tommy does car repair --- Jason does bike repair.  But all of these guys are very talented racers to say the least.

The above mentioned fast guys have multiple bikes, usually new at the beginning of the season with $5K to $10K put into them, mostly into the suspension, they run new tires almost every race. add it up....

new bike $15K
new tires $350.00
mods    $5 - $10K
race fuel   $80 per 5 gallons

one of there bikes  = approx $30K 
$350.00 every other race X 10 races = 5 sets of tires a race weekend = $1750.00
$80.00 for a can of fuel X 6 cans = $480.00
10 races $85 for the first and $55 for the rest X 10 = $580

so for one race weekend these fast guys are arriving with a $30K bike because stock can't handle at the speeds they are going....and they are shelling out an additional approx $3k. Season total for a mere 7 weekends is $21K for these guys

I know I don't have an extra $3k laying around every month / $21K a season, nor do I have an extra $30K to throw at a bike every year.... and don't know of many other people that do either.

To be competitive with these fast guys your looking at a cost of approx $50K a year... $20K a year if you don't get a new bike every year.

with those numbers stated....

they say anything below $30K a year for income.... you are poor.............Personally around $50K a year for us is making ends meet --- married with 2 kids ages 4 and 7, rent to own our house, not much on credit cards, a truck payment and a trailer payment ( bikes are paid off :D ) 2 cats, a dog, a snake, and 5 rats to feed the snake. this is a net of approx $50K annually.

in order for a single person to be able to live and be competitive with these guys they need to make at least $85K if they buy a new bike every year or $55K without a new bike every year,  a year net income.....  But this means that single person is living off of $30K a year and the rest is to racing. somebody recently told me to speak numbers and not words because words confuse them.... well here are the numbers.

the average net annual income in the USA is $46K.
http://www.mybudget360.com/how-much-does-the-average-american-make-breaking-down-the-us-household-income-numbers/

I do not know of many single people making $85K a year.... and the ones that I do know, do not live around here.

Yes it will cost big money for somebody to be competitive with these guys..... I know quite a few guys out there racing that have the talent to dice it up with these guys if they had the money. So there is not a lack of talent just a lack of money.

These fast guys are making well above average incomes, while most other racers are racing on the average income.

Hence I mentioned to the fast guys with the money to pay or sponsor a newbie to be fast..... it will bring in new racers and even out the playing fields a bit.  allowing the greater majority of the racers, the average income racers to have a chance to be competitive with there peers.

I have ZERO issues with these fast guys and love what they do. But they are more then capable of affording full AMA seasons.  Instead of investing all this money into a guarenteed podium, why not put the money back into the sport via protoges ( sp)?  for the cost of one of them racing for the season they can sponsor 5 new guys each.

Yeah I know it is all about the experience of the prep, the hot lap, the grid, the boards, the start, the white flag and the glorious checkered and not about the end result............. How many times is a guy gonna live that experience, get lapped, and only get in 10 laps out of a 12 lap race that they paid for before it gets old? I bet it feels great to win! but the majority of EX racers will not feel that glory because they simply can not afford it. That kind of frustration is what is turning racers away.

Yes I think cramming all of the races into one day is very dangerous..... As Jason said.... just wait till he buzzes an AM, scares the shit out of him and send him off the track. That is going to happen alot with this new one day thing... CCS does not use the blue flag thus the lappers have no idea that a guy going 10 + seconds faster then him is about it pass him through turn 1. It is dangerous for the fast guy and the lapper. 

I would say they need to start with the blue flag but there is no time to train the safety crew or the racers of the new addition. heck most guys don't know what a debris flag wave off is....or how to proper conduct it.. how are they to know what a new blue flag is or how to conduct it?

Jenny,

Your right on a few things but what your not realizing with me and a couple others is that I don't have or make anywhere near the $ you might think I do.
I know your just throwing out examples but I have to mention something.
I have been road racing for 16 years. I started off just like the back marker Amatuer from day one. I had just a beater pickup truck with a street bike just like the next first time racer guy. I was jealous of all the more well-off racers who were A. either faster than me as an expert rider or B. Slower with a whole lot of money.
The only thing I could do was complain for the rest of my life or devise a plan to make it to the top. So after 16 years of yes only doing 3-4 race weekends a year pretty much my whole racing career. I'm now able to do what I always wanted. I finally achieved sponsorship due to my hard work effort after all these years. What I want to bring up is that even though my sponsors paid my entry fees for the season, if I were to not win most of my races each weekend I wouldn't be able to attend the next race weekend due to making no contingency $$.
I have done well this season and have been able to afford racing due to winning most of my races due to hard work all year.
I understand that you have a family and other responsiblities of which makes racing hard to afford.
Trust me when I say at the end of the day I make no more money than you guys & I run a business on top of that.

I don't kids or a house to show for it. Nothing. I'm basically a slave to my business & my sponsors. If I had kids I would probably quit racing all together. Being as quick as I am take a lot of hard work and dedication. You get what you can put in with this sport. I literally go home to go to bed. Thats it! I'm home at most 8-9 hrs a day 7 days a week. If I'm not racing I'm working at my shop or figuring out how to go faster. Not with money but with knowledge & self discipline.
Now with your #'s and looking at my $2000 tire bill, $250 fuel bill, travel cost, days off of work where I'm losing money, try to understand that I HAVE to win or I won't be racing period.
I choose not to run AMA due to the fact that there is no money to be made this year. No contingency. Trust me, it cost WAY more money to race AMA than CCS.

I'm only going to imagine that Dan and many others are in the same boat as me. Now Brian on the other hand...... I know he is not making anywhere near the contingency I'm making this season. He spends a lot on his racing because it is what he enjoys it and he has earned his money and can do with it what he pleases.
He has had some unfortunate things happen to him this season of which if those things happened to many others they would not be racing any longer this season. Brian has won 3 Overall Championships in CCS in the past 4 seasons. I will have to say that it is due to riding very well and yes having enough money to make that happen.
Brian is getting bored with racing and its no secret that he won't be around after this season.
I'm working on finishing out my season well and using my resume to gain more sponsorship to contest the AMA series next season but only if I get enough sponsors.
I've been racing since I could run on my legs. I've worked very hard and have sacrificed many other lifestyles of the "normal people". I've heard it all from family & friends. I wouldn't trade if for the world. I wake up thinking about a different line on the track or different riding positions and write them down at 4am. Its all I do. I anyone else were to whore themselves out to racing like I do they would be fast like myself also.

I have had much fun racing this season and honestly racing in CCS this season might make me a slower rider cause I'm not used to competition. Racing for a hard earned win is much more fun.  3 weekends to go. Lets all make the best of it!!
:cheers:

Well said Jason :) Oh yes I know all to well you working your ass off everyday day, day in and day out.  That is a very respectable quality many admire about you including Jim and myself. Having sponsorship makes a huge difference in the cost of racing too.

slower?!? didn't you break the BFR track record on the 600 in July?  But slowing down to have somebody to play with I understand. 

I hope with this new one day thing, Everybody's body can handle it.... it is gonna be hell on everybody :(  Good luck to all.

I'm going to be very blunt about this, and it might be a tad unpopular. If you have responsibilities that require financial commitments and you cannot afford to race, don't race.
Life needs to have balance and priorities.

I've always thought the "poor racer" argument was a hollow one. If you have money to race, you are not poor, you are choosing to spend your money on it, no one is forcing you. There are people who think that $30K or $50K per year is a fortune. They have a hard time affording decent food and a roof over their heads. Racing? It's something they watch on network television on the weekend while working 2 jobs and trying to raise a family. 

Like I posted earlier, the fast guys are making it work for themselves, and they work hard at it. I will never be able to afford a Ferrari, but I still appreciate the grace and beauty of one. I will never be a fast club expert, much less Valentino Rossi, but I can appreciate the dedication and sacrifices these riders make to pursue their dream. Worrying about what one can't have (whether it's a skill or material possession) will only make one bitter and resentful. Count the blessings you do have, like health, a steady income (especially in these tough times), and a loving family, and one will find they are rich in life. Never assume you know what other people make, what their circumstances are, or how they are making ends meet, you are most likely wrong.

To address the 1 day format, while unfortunate, it's the cold, brutal truth of the economy. Kevin is doing what he thinks will work to keep the season viable. As a business owner, he has no obligation to continuously lose money on a region where participation is waning. I haven't always seen eye to eye with Kevin, but I still appreciate the fact that he is working to keep club racing alive. Rumor mongering and bitching will not strengthen this sport, only weaken it. Fortunately, there are quite a few folks who think the Midwest will recover eventually. Coming up with viable strategies to change the sport to make it sustainable won't be easy, but it can be accomplished. The sport is changing, but then the normal state of anything is change. Blaming the decline on fast riders won't solve the problem and let's face it, there are some who will never be able to afford to campaign a championship season.

My hope is that 3-5 years from now this will only be a bad memory. That grids will be full, and the racing intense. It's happened before and will happen again. Let's face it, no one is going to make a living at club racing unless you are very good and very clever a la Robert Jensen. Hell, 2/3s of the AMA grid is living from paycheck to paycheck and race weekend to race weekend. Sponsorship has been scarce the last couple of years, even for the bigger teams. The funny thing about change, sometimes it has unintended consequences. When you think you are making something better, you wind up with 3 other problems to solve, whereas something subtle and unexpected will produce dramatically stunning results. I think that's where we are right now in the sport, at a crossroads that will bring the sport forward in a dramatic way. I wish I was a fortune teller and could you give a clue, but alas, I'm not. However, I remain optimistic while being realist.

You want to make a million dollars racing? Start with 2 million................

So very few people make any money at racing it's ridiculous. At this level and this time it's near impossible.

Doug Polen made over $100K back in '87 racing for Suzuki contingency money. He cleared $30K after expenses and he did it on the cheap, traveling in and living out of a beat up old van. Traveled to every Suzuki money race he could get to. He got protested in California because he handed all the locals their asses. Tear down showed not only was he legal but his engines were freaking worn out and needed rebuilding.

Talent speaks a lot about the fast guys, not just money invested in the bikes. I'm quite sure any of our top local riders could go out on anyone elses bike with a bit of prep time (set up, not parts) and still kick ass.
Give these guys the credit they're due.............

I have been in and out of CCS since they started back in '84. They have had a good ride for many years but maybe this economy is their down fall. Hate to see it go but if Kevin is bleeding money at every race he will have to fold it. And remember this is club motorcycle road racing. Life will go on with out it if that happens.

Every person involved in this does it for their love of sport, passion for competition and fun. It is not a neccesity for life except for Kevin, it is his business. For his sake I hope he can  remodel CCS to better attract more racers and keep things afloat.

I'm off my soap box now, sipping coffee and waiting for the bashing.............. :)

See y'all at the Red Flag auction.

Quote from: weggieman on August 18, 2010, 12:00:48 PM

I'm off my soap box now, sipping coffee and waiting for the bashing.............. :)

See y'all at the Red Flag auction.

What bashing? I'm pretty sure those that race agree with you. At least I didn't need to offer you cheese with your whine.  :biggrin:

See you there as well. We're gonna have let you get on the mike for a bit to give Mark a break. I'm sure there's a beer with your name on it somewhere... :thumb:

Quote from: weggieman on August 18, 2010, 12:00:48 PM
You want to make a million dollars racing? Start with 2 million................

So very few people make any money at racing it's ridiculous. At this level and this time it's near impossible.

Doug Polen made over $100K back in '87 racing for Suzuki contingency money. He cleared $30K after expenses and he did it on the cheap, traveling in and living out of a beat up old van. Traveled to every Suzuki money race he could get to. He got protested in California because he handed all the locals their asses. Tear down showed not only was he legal but his engines were freaking worn out and needed rebuilding.

Talent speaks a lot about the fast guys, not just money invested in the bikes. I'm quite sure any of our top local riders could go out on anyone elses bike with a bit of prep time (set up, not parts) and still kick ass.
Give these guys the credit they're due.............

I have been in and out of CCS since they started back in '84. They have had a good ride for many years but maybe this economy is their down fall. Hate to see it go but if Kevin is bleeding money at every race he will have to fold it. And remember this is club motorcycle road racing. Life will go on with out it if that happens.

Every person involved in this does it for their love of sport, passion for competition and fun. It is not a neccesity for life except for Kevin, it is his business. For his sake I hope he can  remodel CCS to better attract more racers and keep things afloat.

I'm off my soap box now, sipping coffee and waiting for the bashing.............. :)

See y'all at the Red Flag auction.

That is actually  an awesome idea you touched on..........bike swap race.....but all EX # in a hat and draw.... the number you get is the bike you ride... same for AM class...


Just to be a shit head here..... :D...... ( like I havn't already )  I offer up my hubby's bike to Jason, Brian, or Dan. they have the talent and we already know that the bike can do 13s. We will trailer it for you too... ( I think it would be kick ass to see a fast guy kick ass on bone stock bike.... great idea )

Hey Jenny, since I don't know you, fill me in please.. Why did you quit racing?

Quote from: Jeff on August 18, 2010, 03:22:00 PM
Hey Jenny, since I don't know you, fill me in please.. Why did you quit racing?

LOL I never raced... I corner worked for Mid west Safety crew for 8 years and trackdays for 6 years... I noticed a decline in the safety of the safety crew as well as lack of workers and training. After being nelt on the track at the apex of T7 at BFR  during a race with a down rider while being refused the red flag by control I quit... Had enough....I had 3 bikes down 2 riders down... one bike and one rider on track.  Rider down on the track was EX # 892...I am not going to be a part of somebody being killed because of a money race... This is when I was asked by numerous racers to start a new FREE safety crew organization and was told if I do so I will be banned from the track and CCS

My husband used to race.....  started in 2006 He quit racing in May due to alot of different reasons.  2nd in midwest USB AM class 2007 and 2nd in the midwest in USB EX class 2008. Was a full time Motovid video bike rider 2009.  He runs consistant 1:14 at BFR dipping into the 13's a few times his last day racing

James Allen Rodefer Jr. EX # 891 on a 2005 CBR600RR ---- STOCK.... used up tires, roached break pads, pump gas, the wrong effed up MAP till Jason fixed it, sleeping in the trailer and eating pbj's and mom's chilli.

His first crash was in the rain in T6 at BFR, I was the safety crew worker to pick him up....Lost contact until 2008...the rest is history :D

Lots of interesting points of view.  Many that I can agree with.  Some that I don't.  But thats what makes this interesting.  I don't believe trackdays are ruining racing.  Jason, I'd have a hard time believing that you'd still be in business without some of the additional work provided to you by track day riders.  I could be wrong and correct me if I am.  People are now presented with another alternative to racing.  Why this option is more appealing is something that CCS needs to do some research on.  If you don't poll people outside of the racer community, then you have a self serving sample.  Or in this case, perhaps an inaccurate view on peoples perceptions.  Or again, perhaps it is right on.......

Trackdays and racing are different.  Plain and simple.  Some will disagree.  They're both on the track.  They both use motorcycles.  But they are different in many other ways.  

I'm not educated on this topic, so I have to ask questions instead of making statements.

What marketing does CCS do?  I didn't see a CCS booth at the IMS shows trying to drum up new racers or even making their presence known.  You can't do what you aren't aware of.
I've not seen any promotional materials for CCS in any shops or dealerships.
There needs to be a larger push to get youngsters into the hobby.  Kids play little league in hopes of going to the big leagues when they grow up.  If a family can afford to support their children's passion to ride or race, everything possible should be done to encourage this.  I almost get the impression that if we (the racing community) don't bring more racers to the grids, we'll lose CCS and it's our own fault.

I also believe society is to blame for the decline.  You guys talk about "pulling out your balls" and bringing your A game, to throw down and show what you're made of.

This is the age of politically correct.  In little league, they play x number of innings.  We don't keep score, because there are no losers.  It's OK if your not the best.  Just do YOUR best.  There's no drive or passion in people any longer.  No one has been instilled that competitive attitude in their life.  Just be one of the cattle.  Go to work.  Like everyone else.  Do your part.  Thats what's expected of you.  Make money, save and retire to get by.  No one strives to be the next Bill Gates or research Dr. to discover a medical cure that impacts all of man kind.  The days of Chuck Yeager and the Apollo astronauts is over.  People that would fear nothing to prove they were the best and could what no one else could do or dare to try.  Chuck would come out tomorrow on a stock FZR 400 and do whatever it took to kick all of our asses if that was the only thing he was given and the challenge was presented to him.

I do quite a few trackdays.  Contrary to some opinions up here, I spend a lot of time and money to go out and help people become better, safer and faster riders.  I seem to have come in on the end of an era.  I came to track days to get some skills to get me to a safe pace and develop skills to go racing.  As Jason stated, if I was in my first race, my first time on an track and he and Dan came by me, I'd probably crap my pants and go home.  Demoralized and completely convinced I had not business being there.  Unfortunately, the economy and personal circumstances have not allowed me to race as much as I would like.  When I came to track days, there were always a few people that were there to get better and give themselves an edge over other racers.  Alex Macevicius and Erik Rodriguez are some names that come to mind.  I remember Erik's first track day.  On a street bike with borrowed leathers.  He pushed himself to become better.  To go faster.  To find and confront the things that kept him from becoming the best he could be.  Neither Alex or Erik had the latest and greatest equipment.  They did what they could and got the most out of the resources available to them.

Over the years, those types of personalities have become less and less prevalent.  Trackdays seem to be evolving into more of a hobby or life experience.  Something you do to say you've done it and have some cool pictures for your desk at work or to show the grand kids when you get old.  A place to hang out with friends and enjoy your weekends riding motorcycles.   I'm glad many people are doing at track days instead of on the street.  Many of you here don't or can't see that because you, have that drive to be better or the best.  You'll do whatever it takes to get that edge.  You'll drive all night after not sleeping to prep your bike.  Nothing stands in your way if you can help it.  It's not that anyone is right or wrong, it's just a different view.

Nothing is going to change over night. As we've seen at the AMA level our industry and the riding / racing community have a lot of work to do.  It's everyone's responsibility to promote the sport and keep the outlook on motorcyclists positive.  This includes the dealers, manufacturers, racing organizations, corporate sponsors at the top level and everyone in between.  Why aren't we seeing any national talent coming down, hanging out and doing meet and greats with the up and coming racers?  Reminding them, that the future is them.  Though they're factory sponsored now, they started right where we are standing.

CCS needs to take a good hard look, do some research and work the problem.  

My $0.02.  Thanks for reading it.

And on that note.  Since they're reading.  I need to say thanks to Marshall Skloss, Jeff Kufalk and Rob Sobottka just to name a few that come to mind quickly.  These were some of the first people in the CCS community to help me, support me and reassure me that I could race.  Very early on when I knew very few people in the motorcycle track community.  If not for them, I probably would have never done what little racing I have done or will do in the future. 

  I think gkotlin has a great idea!
I'd be glad to help man a CCS booth at one of the IMS events, Minneapolis or Chicago for a day.  I think if racers were involved in that kind of marketing you might be surprised with the result.
  Your comment about higher level racers giving back reminded me of a similair situation a few years ago.  I remember Doug Polen coming to MAM with Omaha Ducati several years ago.  It was a big deal.
He did a track walk  during the lunch break and I think everyone was out there staining to hang on to every word he said.  He was very approachable and was willing to visit with everyone, even us lowly amateurs.

Quote from: riderupred on August 18, 2010, 03:17:42 PM

Just to be a shit head here..... :D...... ( like I havn't already )  I offer up my hubby's bike to Jason, Brian, or Dan. they have the talent and we already know that the bike can do 13s. We will trailer it for you too... ( I think it would be kick ass to see a fast guy kick ass on bone stock bike.... great idea )

WTH?! you offer up my bike, MY BIKE!, without even asking me first?!  wow. you ARE crazy :P

Actually that's something I've thought of before just to see what the results would be.
Back in '07 I got to ride on one of Brian Halls race bikes from '06 and just going to that bike from mine I dropped 3 seconds in 2 laps from cold tires.

A bike has a bunch to do with it but the rider is what ultimately has the control.

Back OT.

Greg hit on a Major issue here.
Back in '02 when I got my 1st sportbike after 20 yrs of riding bikes I didn't even hear of a trackday until '03 when I first got onto these dang forums.
It wasn't until then that I looked up online what all these trackdays were all about and then I stumbled upon Blackhawk Farms' site. Intrigued since I felt RA was WAY to far out of my league and at $185 a pop to go out there?! wow!
Back before I got into track riding I always thought people were crazy for paying that kind of money to ride on a track. And then to race? Even more rediculous.

Until late '04. All I had was a rat bike 88 kanotuna and some friends conned me into going to Putnam. All I could say after that was Holy Shit was that FUN!!!. In '05 I got the 600rr I have to this day with a handfull of tracjdays under it's belt before it was turned over to racing.
When racing became a thought I had it in my head I would not be very competitive but I wanted to go out there and see where I would end up in the field since I felt that during trackday and being passed by guys while in the "I" group I wouldn't amount to much. But since a friend of mine asked me to race to help support his website I felt obligated to do so after all the things he had did for me.

Well, going in with cold feet, intimidated as all gettout I did my first race at HPT and was utterly humiliated. Wanted to quit right there and then. But Bill Furman took me around the track in his van to go over all the horrible mistakes I made on the grid, during my meatball, and basically ream me out he realized I was just a scared noobie that didn't know shit. His tone changed and I was then taken under a wing and helped out to understand what to do and when. Yes I read the handbook. Three times at least but it didn't connect me with the real life of racing. After I got to understand the routines and whatnot I really really liked the racing thing Way more than trackdays!

But it took some time to get out of the scardey cat shell, the cocoon of intimidation, the "i shouldn't be out here" frame of mind and into the "holy cow, racing rocks!".

My baseline is what was said before. I never once in all my trips to the bike shop seen Anything or heard anything about CCS racing or Any club racing for that matter.
Yet trackdays was mentioned in a flyer Mybe once from what I remember and it was a BMW day thing at RA. Never anything about BFR up near Port Washington where I lived.

So basicaly there needs to be some form of advertisement Somewhere or no one will get to know of this club racing thing. And so far I still haven't seen squat in regards to advertisement of CCS accept for certain forums that mention it or are involved in it.

 
Jim,

succinctly put;

"I never once in all my trips to the bike shop seen Anything or heard anything about CCS racing or Any club racing for that matter."

This year, Motovid.com and Blackhawk Farms Raceway have had over 800 track day participants, 50 Rider Clinic students go thru the All Levels Motorcycle Track Day and Track Championship Rider Clinics in 2010 approximately. When this program started in 2005, we had less than 100 participants. In its sixth year, we are still growing the best prospective future road racer markets. 

We will most likely see over 1,000 participants this year, averaging just under 100 riders an event. It is clear, obvious, track days have become the prospective market for future racers. This is in a down economy.

Just like the kiddies who grew up on the internet, I'd bet it will be hard to find future racers who have NOT participated or even possibly began their racing endeavor at a track day.... not true today....but I'd bet its true in the future. 

In our view, the ideal way to reach the prospective BFR / MW racer demograph is by marketing the CCS product to our market of track day riders.

Many of our riders have never seen a racetrack, know little if anything about road racing and have many, many questions, desires and goals themselves.....we cater to this segment with instruction from local regional experts and professional racers while building camaraderie with control riders to build on this community and forage new markets. Many are simply not ready for racing, but interested!

yea, many desire to take the next step but simply cannot meander thru the unknowns. Just look at the forums.....Lets assume CCS/Racing community could answered the big question " Why Race?" the next question becomes "How to begin?" Our Rider Clinics help, but we need direct help from the Race Sanction.

Folks, we should be brutally honest in business terms for the survival of our club/passion..... that is, "our little secret" must get out and be presented (promoted- marketed - advertised) directly to the new market of performance motorcycle enthusiasts than now compliment the many flavors of Rider Clinics and Licensing schools to harvest new racers. Track Days.

Our Track Days @ BFR are a success because we work very diligently to get the word out - market - promote - advertise and deliver a quality experience safely. For example, we have three (3) track day seminars this month alone at local dealerships, one scheduled for over 800 riders at bike rally event in Wisc. Dells, and we are doing all we can to get riders off the street.  Btw, these promotions are for a SINGLE EVENT, Sept. 22nd.

However, these are still just track days. We firmly believe this market is an awesome opportunity to harvest new racers, hence the design of the Track Championship Rider Clinics, held on Fri. Race Practices, as a natural progression to bring new riders from our track days to the race weekends. You must have the target market first identified, value proposition clear, to being promotions and expect any true results.

From our Track Championship Rider Clinics, students are exposed to CCS and the same instructor staff (LCR partners) than can give them their race license. We have already converted a few this year through this process working with Rick / LCR. We have 11 Students for RIDER CLINIC RACE group on Sat.


BFR/Motovid.com feel the race orgs. should now take the baton from here and get riders off track days & clinics with the right incentive/presentation! 

Contrary to the rants about how spectators need to come and pay the bills for our sport/club road racing.....as much as I hate to state this, it would never happen.

Our passion for this sport is not shared stateside similar to other spectator draws such as NASCAR or even Modified Flat Track Racing on oval tracks. As Operations Mgr. for HPT 06-08, we ran many Flat Track Races with 1000-1200 spectators, Drag Races with over 40,000 and of course Road Races. Road Races (including cars) less than 100 per event. The difference is staggering.

For the United States, this business of club road racing is a participant driven model period. If you are a duck, act like a duck. Spectators are not the way. A better business model with updated assumptions must be designed.

Therefore in my view, club road racing's success is contingent upon the premise "he/she who receives or participates in the service offering (racing activity) pays the price."

Just like Great America Six Flags......pay to play folks....Some really fast guys figured out how to get others to pay (Jason, Brian, Danny, of course Robbie) among others. But for most, you pay for the experience of burning rubber and race fuel. 

In this way, Track Days have tapped into the experience value proposition of performance motorcycles on a race track quite well. NOT to be confused with the experience of RACING, which is very different...110% WOT - enter pure competition, more risk, heightened awareness, excitement.....did I say more risk?

In sum, we take riders off the street, intro to a race track safely, ride @ 85-90%,  harvest new racers with our rider  clinic events, we are not competing with racing.  Dealers get involved, riding groups get involved, sponsors get involved......so how can race organizations get involved with track days? I have some ideas which I will run past Kevin for 2011. 

At this point, the Race Organizations themselves must present [promote - market - adverrtise]  their value proposition to this KNOWN market of track day enthusiasts with a new business model that works for the future of motorcycle club road racing....... Once again "Why Race?" to the racers and from Kevin/CCS perspective, why "Own the Race Business?" It must be clear.

If its just about passion, and the good ole days of how it "usta" be, we are all in trouble as this is a business with much risk and market contingencies that have changed. The future model must be sustainable in business as a participant driven sport for all parties to be successful.

my .02(3) cents - flame on;

Mike, I'm disappointed. I really wanted a whiny, close minded rant. You give us a well thought out response.  :blahblah:

What's up with that? No he said/she said, no woe is me, no die in a fire. :ahhh:

You've basically confirmed what I've been saying, that we need a new business model. I find this economic downturn to be the pivotal point for the future of the industry.

Next time I expect you to dumb down your response and side step the question. Present a narrow, negative view.  I mean, that's what good drama is all about.   :biggrin:

Quote from: riderupred on August 18, 2010, 09:14:31 PM
LOL I never raced... I corner worked for Mid west Safety crew for 8 years and trackdays for 6 years... I noticed a decline in the safety of the safety crew as well as lack of workers and training. After being nelt on the track at the apex of T7 at BFR  during a race with a down rider while being refused the red flag by control I quit... Had enough....I had 3 bikes down 2 riders down... one bike and one rider on track.  Rider down on the track was EX # 892...I am not going to be a part of somebody being killed because of a money race... This is when I was asked by numerous racers to start a new FREE safety crew organization and was told if I do so I will be banned from the track and CCS

I was going to call BS, but instead I'm just going to wait to see if there's another perspective on this.

For the record, I also have worked corners (CCS, AMA and CSS), and if I recall, if a corner worker sees an incident that requires a red flag, (and what you describe sounds serious enough), once you call it out as the official in that corner that it's going to happen. I've never heard of a red being refused at a club event. Protocol is different for AMA events, but not by much.

As far as starting a 'free' corning working organization, that's doesn't make sense from a number of perspectives. Even non-profits and volunteer organization have costs that need to be covered. Considering the number of people I talk to in a week, much less a year, it's surprising that I've not heard of anything like this going on in the Midwest. (And I hear a lot of scuttlebutt)

I respect the fact that you've worked for MSC, and it's a thankless job sometimes. IMO, your current ranting sounds a lot like sour grapes. I'm sure there's another side to this story. Perhaps someone will come forward and enlighten us. Until then, I'll reserve judgment on what you've written here.

Motovid.com (I assume Mike)  Has hit it on the head.  The sport at this level is competitor driven.  Mike is a stellar marketer.  I'm sure he has as many ideas on how to fix this as I would.

He's been looking at and working with this market for a long time.  He's not just making this stuff up.  He's looked at this from every angle because he has to.  It's in his best interest to do so.

The point is someone at CCS needs to make this their focus.  There needs to be the money to help them execute the plan.  Then the industry, fans and competitors will show if it's viable in their support or lack there of.

You don't go to the rowing club to look for new Nascar Drivers.  You go to other disciplines of motorsports or to the club level / farm teams to pull people up.  We are the farm team or club level.  If you want people to race, you need to draw them in.  You need to market.  You need to show people why they are completely missing out on the coolest thing ever in the history of the world by not coming out and trying racing.

So $10,000.00 question is.  Why do people do track days instead of racing?  It's clear that your #1 pool of immediate new riders is track days, so don't tell them they're ruining your sport.  Support and partner with them.  If you can't beat em, join em.  Those that say track days ruined racing, must assume that people were forced into racing if they wanted to get on to the track?  Now there are alternatives.  The alternative I believe has brought many new riders to the track.  As in any business, times, the economy and perceptions change.  CCS' job is to grow and adapt to meet those new challenges and changes.

We know the problem.  We know what end result we want.  The question is how do you get there and still pay the bills.........

Alexa, and all, just to address one comment, the leathers that you have repaired for me were damaged in the crash where I was trapped under my bike, on track at the exit of turn 7, July 26, 2009, Am LWSS, Lap 3. The race should have been red flagged. There were 3 bikes off track, 2 of them down, and 2 of us transported to medical. The participants that were still racing have all mentioned to me that they have no idea why the race wasn't red flagged, and I agree. I really did not feel very safe with bikes whizzing past me still while I was in an impact zone. Spilled Milk, and no use crying over it. But, for the record, the alleged event DID happen. Further more, the bike that I ran over causing my crash was on track, on it's side and pointing south in the middle of Turn 7. No red flag could have been brought out quickly enough to keep me from crashing as I was in the middle of the incident as was Gearhead. But, it is absolutely true that I was laying on track, in a definite impact zone, and was laying there until the Medics got to me. Jenny did get the bike off of me and keep me still until they got there and she most definitely was in harms way herself.

Again, no use crying over spilled milk, but it did happen. Here is what Gron4 got of the crash. I am 892, and was on the outside of 902 (Gearhead) and I used the #213 SV that is down as a launch ramp. Great take off, but I botched the landing. :)

http://www.gron4.com/2009/072609/amt/902/

Thanks for your insight Jim. This is why I said I reserve judgment until all sides are heard.

From the perspective of someone who's done just about everything you can in this sport, I have an issue when there's a call for blood resulting from one incident. I don't know why a red flag was not called for. Generally the person on the com is the eyes and ears for control. Concise communication is key. Fact is, Midwest Safety Crew has an excellent record for as long as I can remember, (back to the mid 80s). They are not without fault, but I know that there is protocol in place to review all incidents and to improve performance when something is not up to their standard.

I'm glad you have a sense of humor about the incident. You definitely need to improve the landing, in fact, next time, how about you just stay shiny side up?  ;)

Quote from: gkotlin on August 19, 2010, 08:58:00 AMSo $10,000.00 question is.  Why do people do track days instead of racing?  It's clear that your #1 pool of immediate new riders is track days, so don't tell them they're ruining your sport.  Support and partner with them.  If you can't beat em, join em.  Those that say track days ruined racing, must assume that people were forced into racing if they wanted to get on to the track?  Now there are alternatives.  The alternative I believe has brought many new riders to the track.  As in any business, times, the economy and perceptions change.  CCS' job is to grow and adapt to meet those new challenges and changes.

Well said Greg.

While I do feel that there should have been a red flag, I also am very happy with how I was treated by all parties concerned, and I am grateful to everyone from MSC, Jenna in particular, to the Blackhawk Farms Medical Team, to the CCS Staff. I did get my bell rung pretty hard, and I would have to defer to the judgment of those who didn't slam dance with the turn 7 asphalt with their noggins. Fact is, I was obviously not hit by anyone else post incident, and neither was the ambulance. I was kept out of harms way in any case, and am glad to be here. See everybody Saturday! 

Quote from: Doctor on August 19, 2010, 01:41:31 PM
While I do feel that there should have been a red flag, I also am very happy with how I was treated by all parties concerned, and I am grateful to everyone from MSC, Jenna in particular, to the Blackhawk Farms Medical Team, to the CCS Staff. I did get my bell rung pretty hard, and I would have to defer to the judgment of those who didn't slam dance with the turn 7 asphalt with their noggins. Fact is, I was obviously not hit by anyone else post incident, and neither was the ambulance. I was kept out of harms way in any case, and am glad to be here. See everybody Saturday! 

Again, thanks for your perspective Jim. I'll look forward to seeing you this weekend!

Quote from: Doctor on August 19, 2010, 01:41:31 PM
While I do feel that there should have been a red flag, I also am very happy with how I was treated by all parties concerned, and I am grateful to everyone from MSC, Jenna in particular, to the Blackhawk Farms Medical Team, to the CCS Staff. I did get my bell rung pretty hard, and I would have to defer to the judgment of those who didn't slam dance with the turn 7 asphalt with their noggins. Fact is, I was obviously not hit by anyone else post incident, and neither was the ambulance. I was kept out of harms way in any case, and am glad to be here. See everybody Saturday! 

And we will still never know how Ralph kept the bike upright!

July 26th 2009 LWSS - that was my first race...I watched that happen.....and thankfully didn't clip any of you or the bikes on the way by

I was kind of wondering about that one too that day, basically the ambulance was parked in the slide zone the remainder of the race, I don't personally remember anything left on the track after that first time thru but there was definitely stuff I wouldn't like to slide into

as to how ralph kept it upright - lol - it's a buell, it doesn't LIKE to turn 8-)p

Quote from: KTG on August 19, 2010, 04:12:11 PM
And we will still never know how Ralph kept the bike upright!

exactly.!!! ...... I was told he just let got and the bike did the rest............. the bike did a great job of staying out of the pot holes back there  :D It was quite the show :D

Yeah this happened.... it was not a one time thing either... it has happened alot since we lost Bill ( R.I.P. Bill), The red flag was requested by the radio corner worker but was denied by control. I have no idea why...they did send the ambulance out at pit, counter course and parked it 3 feet off the track though. What I do know is that it was a really bad situation and the runner they put out there with me had no training and said he told control in the morning meeting that he could not be a runner.  overweight and had a heart issue :( yeah spilled milk :( life goes on..... No sour grapes....... just after a dozen times of the same type of situation... I couldn't personally deal with what the outcomes could possible become...

for this FREE safety crew, I had financial backing from racers and supporters, it would be at no cost to the track or organization.... It was not my idea to start it, rather another racers idea because they were sick of the lack of safety provided during races.  I was only asked to run it.  It was a way to keep the cost down for the track, organization, and racers while providing a  superior level of safety crew workers.   I had the money, support and people willing to work.  I have vacated that idea. Not much more to that I guess :(

You guys are all missing the most important thing that has changed in the past 10 years and made this sport to expensive. You used to be able to get in and race Supersport, which had to best contingency with very little mods. This is something that has gone overlooked for to long. Everyone has to build a motor, get kit ecu,run race gas,ect,ect. that used to be for the guys that had money and could not ride. If I could buy a bike and have strict SS rules I would still be racing.

Thanks for the memories guys!!!
  In that split second as I heard Michael and his SV sliding in front of me, I remembered someone telling me to keep a light grip on the bars when in trouble, which I thought I was doing.  It was only after I saw the photos that I realized that my brain and body were in FULL BALE OUT mode!!
  My old hot rod saved me that day in spite of the guy trying to ride it!!!
  Things sure could have turned out a lot worse for everyone!

Quote from: fzraddict on August 19, 2010, 10:03:52 PM
You guys are all missing the most important thing that has changed in the past 10 years and made this sport to expensive. You used to be able to get in and race Supersport, which had to best contingency with very little mods. This is something that has gone overlooked for to long. Everyone has to build a motor, get kit ecu,run race gas,ect,ect. that used to be for the guys that had money and could not ride. If I could buy a bike and have strict SS rules I would still be racing.

I don't know that I quite agree with that. I can recall racing in the mid 90's and you could get Kit HRC blackboxes,cams, velocity stacks, transmissions if you called the right people and had money. Back then if you knew a bit about motors you could really gain some power in Supersport compared to stock engines. Now the motors are built so good from the factory that you really don't need to do much to them but throw on a pipe, Power Commander, Air Filter, etc and you have a great bike.
Suspension is so much better than it was back then also. If you had the money you could spend huge money on a set of forks or internal adjustments and the bike would handle WAY better. In 04-08 I ran stock forks with absolutely NOTHING done to them other than maybe adjust the spring rate for my weight.
I have been racing on the same shock since 1999. It is now on my 2009 ZX6R. I just updated the stack only a couple months ago. So I have had the same shock for 11 years. My brake lines are hand me downs from a street bike I bought wrecked to part out over 5 years ago. Same brake lines.

Remember in the 90's when your bike had a 530 chain on it and you had to sport for a 520 conversion kit? They all come with 520 chains on 600s now. The Kawasakis still have the same sprockets as the ZX7's. Haven't changed.

One thing that has changed is the engine electronics just like everything else in the world electronically. Lots of power is made with electronics. If you are behind the digital divide you will fall behind. More riders are going faster by understanding how to put the power down on the road through electronics.
I have seen a change in CCS throughout the years. A question I often bring up is when was the last time you saw an engine teardown in CCS? I can't even remember. Even if one occured, who would have the knowledge & tools to tear it down & inspect the parts? So for those who think they don't have a chance against faster riders cause they MIGHT have cheater parts there is no reassurance for them to have somebody tore down.

About engine building: You have to let riders freshen their engines. Some do it more than others like myself. I tear it down at least every other weekend and check parts, replace anything with the slightest wear. If I blow a motor I rebuild it myself at the track if I have to. How many guys can do that?
I learned when I was 18 in my first season racing that I couldn't afford racing by paying someone else to do it, so I took it upon myself to learn absolutely everything inside & out about motorcycles. After 16 years I still can barely afford it but I have learned how to save money by doing it myself, riding my ass off, practicing every angle of riding, crashing to find out what doesn't work, working on my marketing skills to advertise.
I was a broke ass 18 year old back then racing and couldn't afford it. Now that I spent all these years learning, starting a performance shop, teaching riding at my own shop, I can finally do what I love and do it well. Thats what being a good rider takes. If your not willing to do that kind of sacrifice someone will always be faster than you.

I really don't think racing has gotten more expensive. Its all relative. One thing that the media keeps trying to push is that this is the summer of recovery. That is all bullshit. Times are tough everywhere and there is less money for the average guy to race.

So you say to make a competative class by keeping things stock. I have to say that the AMA is doing a great job of that lately. The racing has gotten much closer, more fun to watch. Still there are less riders & spectators. The economy is causing that. I own a bike shop. Trust me. Just look at all the bike shops that have closed in the past 2 years. I'm surviving because I'm not a quitter and will do what it takes to pay the bills.
We could try to go with a spec fuel, tires, more scrutinized techs, but in order to do that the series will have to pay some pretty knowledgeable staff with no bias to any teams. All that cost money.

You can't limit their use of blackboxes because the blackbox controls the fuel & ignition.
Stock exhaust would cause major crashes and be unsafe for everyone.
Stock suspension wouldn't be fair for one sized rider who is 130lbs or a 230lb rider. It would be unsafe not to allow suspension changes.
Stock brakelines are dangerous to all.

If you think about it. Pretty much all the aftermarket parts thrown at a motorcycle are there to help you control the bike better of which is safer to ride.

If you have more rules, the team or riders that always excel are the ones with more knowledge, money. They will have the money to find other ways to make the bike handle better to help the rider go faster, safer & easier.

The fastest riders are not the ones with a bigger set of balls. They are the ones that did their homework. And the ones that did their homework will get the good grades! If you think you can ace a test without studying your wrong.
Time to sharpen your tools and get to work.

Racing will always be expensive no matter how you look at it. This sport is not for everyone. This sport is for the dedicated teams and individuals. If you want be competitive in racing motorcycles but the money flow or time isn't in your schedule its time to accept that you need a better paying job, need to sacrifce more things in life to get it, be happy not winning, or do another sport.

I posted a comment earlier of what my father once told me: It all about how bad do you want it.

Tonight I sat and went over my bike with a fine fine toothed comb to get ready for this weekends races. I have been getting ready for my race weekends weeks in advance.

I know I might come off as a bit brash or hard core but I'm sick of Bullshit comments from a couple riders I know who congratulate me on my finishes but say I running a cheater bike. All I gotta say is F*&k you! I work my ass off for what I got and I won't ever let anyone try to discredit my riding, & bike building skills.

I'm trying to bring riders to the track to help the sport grow. CCS has a bit to work on with their advertising if they are going to make it. Their races have to change (too many), Tech needs a facelift. (I'm talking Supersport inspections). CCS should be asking the riders what they as an orgainzation do to make it better.

In my previous post my rants were a lot about the motivation / drive of the racers / track day riders of recent seems low. The "I can't do it" syndrome. That I wish would change in todays society. I look around the pits and wonder who will take my place when I'm gone from racing one day.

WELL SAID!!!!!

Jim has worked at his company for 15 years and when times got hard they laid off a ton of people, putting Jim at the bottom of the seniority list. Then the company and Jim had to deal with absorbing employees from the areas that were no longer operational. Jim kept his job thankfully but took a steep pay cut of $3.00 an hour. The economy tanked and is no where near making a come back.

And to the people that have ever said you run a cheater bike.... what the hell are they smokin?  You are by far the most determined person I have ever meet in my life.Your dad is right, it is all about how bad you want it. I have seen your bike from many different angles, on the ground wadded up, in rubbermaid totes, and pretty and polished on stands.. You do not cheat. You are just super talented and missing a screw or two ;) 

Tech does need a facelift for sure, to much gets threw and not nearly enough stuff is given proper attention. There are quite a few very knowledgeable bike guys at the track, like your self, that could volunteer for tare downs. Jason,You are a very unbias person, you have to be due to your business, your tweeking your competitors bikes for a living. 

One suggestion to this issue is to get the racers more involved in the organization, going beyond racing... tech, corner working, timing,  registration and so on.... you would be surprised at how many at willing to do so without being paid a dime, they will do it just to see the club racing succeed.   Where there is a will there is a way right?

Quote from: fzraddict on August 19, 2010, 10:03:52 PM
You guys are all missing the most important thing that has changed in the past 10 years and made this sport to expensive. You used to be able to get in and race Supersport, which had to best contingency with very little mods. This is something that has gone overlooked for to long. Everyone has to build a motor, get kit ecu,run race gas,ect,ect. that used to be for the guys that had money and could not ride. If I could buy a bike and have strict SS rules I would still be racing.

I dont necessarily agree either. Enforcement is one thing, but you dont need to build a bike with all the bells and whistles to be competitive. Sure there are fast guys with all that stuff done, but there are also a few with relatively stock bikes running with those guys too. This is club racing, its about the rider. Heck I raced on street tires, pump gas, and a bone stock motor last year. I was one of the few guys doing that, and maybe I wouldnt have done as well as I did if the grids were larger, but it can be done.

Back to the topic of what CCS might be able to do to help...

I presume they went to a 1 day race to cut costs. If they are losing money every weekend, there's really no sense for them to keep racing, so they have to cut costs or raise their prices. Nobody wants them to raise their prices because that would result in even smaller grids and a downward sprial. They will not be able to make a large enough profit from the spectators to help them much anywhere in the near future, so by lowering the gate fees to get more of a crowd is prettymuch out for CCS.

We all agree that they need to do something to help increase grid size. Sure there are factors that are playing into this problem right now, whether it be the economy, trackdays, girlfriends, or whatever else, but what can CCS do to fix those problems directly? Not much I would guess...

Things have been said about changing tech, and there may be some valid arguements I would presume, but I dont think that would help get ppl into the sport. Maybe help keep a few, but if they had the tech problems fixed tomorrow, I dont think many ppl would come back to race because of that.

Marketing, I dont know. Its a matter of making back what they spend on it. It's club racing, I dont ever really see it as a spectator sport. Maybe marketing toward trackday riders like mentioned before would have an impact weather "racers" like it or not. Times are changing, its not 19xx anymore where trackdays were prettymuch non-existent and you had to just start racing if you wanted to go fast.

Maybe we can continue to offer some more suggestions while times are rough to help make it through.

Im suprised nobody has said anything about online registration. I understand it would cost a bit of money and time, but pretty much every trackday org has it, along with several other racing orgs from what I've seen. Would it make a big difference, probably not, but its not 1995 anymore and we know how lazy some ppl are. Plus would cut down on some data entry for them in the long run. There are several other pros / cons on this too I'm sure.

Another suggestion I have been thinking about is offereing a pre-season race entry package. For example, offer a package where somebody can buy 25 races for $1000 before the season starts or whatever. Sure it's a good chuck of change to shell out for some ppl and CCS wouldnt be making as much on a few entry fees, but it may be an additional way to secure some grid spots without altering the current pre-reg or standard entry fees.

Anyway, just my .02. Don't be to harsh on me 8)

I posted a thread on Chicagolandsportbikes asking why people don't race. Here are the answers.

http://www.chicagolandsportbikes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106420

Quote from: truckstop on August 13, 2010, 10:07:24 PMTop three reasons people give me at track days as to why trackday riders don't race:
1. Too expensive.
2. Not fast enough.
3. Too dangerous.

Quote from: Grasshopper on August 20, 2010, 01:42:42 PM
I posted a thread on Chicagolandsportbikes asking why people don't race. Here are the answers.

http://www.chicagolandsportbikes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106420

Looks like I was pretty close.   :biggrin:

I found the 'meat grinder" reason pretty funny.
If today's grids for middleweight are "meatgrider", what would it have been called back in the late 90s/early 2000s? Pate? Eggbeater?  :biggrin:

To Jason: Damn straight. I remember asking the Boyd boys how much they had into their bikes back in the late 90's and I was told about 20K, for one machine. It was still expensive to be competitive back in 'the good 'ol days'.

To Herbig CBR: you're getting the gist of it. Entry fees are a fixed cost for the racer, they don't change during the season like fuel prices, maintenance (your results may vary), and crash repair. Some of your ideas could very well appeal to Kevin. I suggest you flesh them out a bit with some focus and detail then forward them on.

If the one day race format becomes the norm, I think the race day should be saturday. Racers tend to travel further. It would be nice not to have to pull an all nighter after just running one day of racing.

Here's one - I'm a software engineer - if Kevin needs donated time to build or spec a online reg system or such...I'll donate the time to get it done...I hate Faxes......

Quote from: twilkinson3 on August 23, 2010, 10:23:19 AM
Here's one - I'm a software engineer - if Kevin needs donated time to build or spec a online reg system or such...I'll donate the time to get it done...I hate Faxes......

see we need more people like you to step up to the plate......free is awesome!!!! and we got some damn smart people in the community.....Yeah getting a hand out means swallowing your pride at times but it seems that at this point and time Kevin needs everybody's help to get through this rough time.