Scoring Red Flagged Races

[Eddie#200]

I would like to see Red Flagged races scored diffrently.  Riders involved in a crash during a race that is red flagged and with more than half of the laps run should be docked one lap.  

This way the riders that didn't crash aren't penalized.  As the rules stand now crashes don't count against a rider.  If the race gets stopped the crashed rider can still finish 1st.  That's not fair.  It only seems right that you need to cross the finish line and stay up to win a race.

[mj]

the way that red flagged races are scored now seems to work OK.

riders are placed according to their position on the last lap before the red flag

the rider who causes the red flag is penalized

to do what you say Ed, the riders would have to race back to the start line after the red flag. not a good idea

[the_weggie_man]

  :o  ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? :P not a good idea.

[TiffineyIngram]

MJ has it absolutely right.  The race goes back to the last complete lap prior to the red flag being thrown.  We can't use the lap that the red flag was thrown on because the scorers are at start/finish and at a middle point in a lap, not everyone has crossed start/finish yet.  The rulebook states what I said above, and that the rider(s) who cause the red flag go to the back of the lap that they were on (basically docked a lap).  The person who causes a red flag cannot win the race unless he has lapped the entire field (which can't happen unless Mr. Hayden shows up).  However, let's say the guy in first crashes on the red flag lap but IS NOT charged with causing the red flag (obviously there would have been a second accident he was not involved in).  We would go back to the lap before, and if he were in first at that point, he would win the race.  I understand some don't find this fair, but this is the rule.  It rarely ever happens, but it does happen.

[roadracer797]

Eddie
Hey what are you trying to do take away my third place from last year. Yes I was involed in a crash which resulted in a red flag but I didn't cause it so they went back and gave me fourth, where I was running but then they found out the person who caused they wreck was ahead of me and they docked him a lap which put me in third after the penalty. I believe this was fair because I didn't cause the wreck, I just happened to get caught up in it.
Craig

[bmfgsxr]

i watched someone get a first like this. but rules are rules. the last registered lap is how it stands. not all the rules can make everyone happy.  ;D

[cr133r]

Just to add to the Red flag disaster, I got the short end of the stick this weekend because of it.

In a 30min GTU race at Streets of Willow, my race was redflagged after 5-6 laps.  There was a dual wave start and one of the experts had crashed in turn one so the amateurs were held up a bit longer than normal.  The problem was, I was on the front straight with the leaders of the am group, but during the lap of the red flag, the leader lapped me and another rider.  For the restart they gridded according to the last lap with a dual wave restart.  The Am riders that were lapped previous(and way behind me and the other guy) were placed in the first wave and since me and the other guy didn't actually complete the previous lap(because we were lapped), they placed us randomly in the second group.  This gave the slow guys a HUGE lead on us that we had no way of making up in 3 laps(all that was left in the race, yes we only managed 9-10 laps in a 30 minute sprint).  We were not told we were scored a lap down either until the results were posted the next day.

This pisses me off.  I was riding better than I ever have in the past and should have been scored in 5th place had they started all the amateurs in the same group.  Not to mention the fact I think the GTU class pays out down to 5th place(but I guess I won't know that till next time out).

Its not fun being lapped, but I can deal with it.  Those experts are extremely fast.  But when I get SCREWED because I was barely lapped but still in contention for the race, thats just irritating(I had just cleared the guy that was holding me up and was slowly catching back up to the lead group[although there were two guys that had broken away that I probably wouldn't have caught, but I would have liked to have had the opportunity to try]).

One other thing, I raced the people that were technically a lap ahead of me pretty hard because I thought it was for position.  I wouldn't have pushed them or myself so hard if I knew it didn't matter anyways...

Sorry guys just venting a bit.

[raptorduck952]

"The problem was, I was on the front straight with the leaders of the am group, but during the lap of the red flag, the leader lapped me and another rider."  

Um, I think I was that other rider. They regridded me dead last on the restart. I think they should just have regridded as per the beginning of the race. An amateur that you and I lapped as I recall was regridded in the first wave?

I think when we have transponders in every race, this kind of issue will be less of a problem. I hope so anyway.

I too was very dissapointed about the restart and spoke with the CCS folks about that race and they understood the scoring was all messed up, but they could not re-run the race. Other than that issue, it was a fun race.

[cr133r]

Yep, that was you...  Unfortunately even with electronic scoring the same result will happen.  They followed the rules correctly as far as I can read.  The problem is, the rules don't address this cituation at all.  The lap we ran before the red just disappears from the books and its counted as though we didn't even complete it.

Also this brings up one other point that ISN'T addressed in the rulebook, but it very well should be.  We as amateurs are NOT racing the experts in any way.  We just happen to be running our race in PARALLEL with them to save some time during the day so they can complete more races and make us all happy.  What am I getting at?  We certainly aren't scored with them, its two seperate races.  When I pass an expert, it doesn't affect my results one bit.  What they should do during a red flag with a mixed race is revert back to the last completed lap per race group.  It shouldn't be that hard to figure out in the small amount of time it takes to get all the riders gathered back up.  That way, when racing resumes, you are in the appropriate order according to how you were RUNNING in your OWN class.

I hope someone from CCS reads this and at least ackknowledges the fact that the rules don't address this occurance(and hopefully can make some ammendments to the rules to address this in the future).

I've never ran a 30 minute race before nor have I ever been real competetive(at least I sure wasn't last year).  I worked hard this winter at getting faster and more competetive...  Then this happens in my first race back.  Not a good start for the season and it definately affected my racing the next day.

All said and done, I should have been scored 3rd in the results.  Even if I did indeed get counted a lap down, the 'other' racer should not have been given such a huge lead over someone that had at least a 1/4 lap advantage on the guy before the red flag.

Maybe I'll just petition to become an expert at the next race, at least then I'll actually be racing against the proper group of people when the inevitable red flag flies.

Sorry to sound so cynical, but the rules just don't seem fair when it comes to split gates with experts and amateurs(or even if there were several classes run together that weren't scored against each other)

[r6_philly]

Actually they just messed up the scoring. Based on the rules, they should have grided you guys infront of the other AM's. if you guys crossed start/finish 5 times, and others 4 times, then you would have completed 5 laps and others 4, so everyone would have been 1 lap down, and should be gridded behind you.  If everyone completed 5 laps, and they revert 1 lap back, then you would have crossed start/finish before the others did, then you should be gridded in front.

I think they just messed up the running order and forgot that the other AM's are a lap down, and you guys are on the lead lap. They lost track of the laps.

In a GT race it is not very uncommon. Here in Mid-Atlantic, most of our races are run split. AM GTU usually get 50-60 racers. That means sometimes at a short track (Summit Point) we end up running 3 different laps during one race (lead, one lap down, 2 laps down) and they mess up the laps quite often. We have people lapping people at the same time they get lapped. I remember finishing 15 laps while some people only finished 12.

With elec. scoring and transponders, it would probably ease the problem a lot. They can regrid quickly based on transponders, and people 1 lap down will be placed after the lead lap. Since grid position is not AS important as the result (where a close finish has to be judged by human) they will just print out the running order based on transponders, and regrid based from that. Your problem will probably not occur again, or at least you can protest and have something to prove them wrong.

[Decreasing_Dave]

Hey Billy, I don't mean to throw a wrench in the works....but.

You were grided ahead of me on the restart by 2 full rows.  When the red flag flew, I was running 3rd behind #182 and #76 with #25 behind me.  To top that off, it shouldn't have beena 2 wave restart according to Kevin Elliott.  He said that his guys screwed up by doing that.  If that's not bad enough, they started the second wave 2 rows before the leading amatures were grided.  We had to fight through 2 rows of riders that were not actually in front of us to begin with.

It was very screwed up and I ended up racing guys that I wouldn't have if there wasn't a red flag.

It sucked and I hope that it doesn't happen again.

[cr133r]

I know I was gridded in front of people I shouldn't have been...  I said previously that if I was a lap down, I wouldn't have pushed so hard to keep the 'leaders' behind me.  This was a direct result of them not having me on the list for the previous lap.  A 'hole' opened up in the grid when they realised they had two #3s so they just put me there.  Still, it was a position WAY behind where I should have been.

The thing that sucks the most is the fact that #25 was one position ahead of me and not really that far down the track.  I was still in the 'race' as was the guy behind me...  I'd like to see them adopt a policy that doesn't PENALIZE us for racing at the same time as the experts.