Why do we race?

[Super Dave]

Someone ought to be.Never raced motorbikes.  I raced karts for 3 years and sportscars for 4. 

Unbiased, opinion.

This is honestly the first form of motorsport (or competition, really) that I've witnessed such a sense of entitlement on the part of back markers for 'thier line'.  When did people start expecting manners during a race?It's a RACE.  People are going to do whatever they can to WIN.  Mannerly or not.  As long as they aren't blatently torpeedoing or brake checking people, all's fair. 

Wreckless riders will be punished with sanctions, crashes, or DNFs.  Wreckless doesn't win anyhow, so it's a bit of a self policing process.  Ask Paul Tracy.

Is there a sense of entitlement in club level motorcycle racing?  Yes, certainly.  Might be a whole other thread though.

Wreckless riders punished?  Again, that might be a whole new thread.  There would have to be some debate that there potentially are not enough sanctions against wreckless riders.  They do exist, and they are certainly overlooked for some reason. 

While I have never raced carts or sportscars, I have been around carts, sportscars, oval track cars and the like.  Why is it that all those guys seemed to think that motorcycle road racers are crazy?  Because our exposure is quite a bit different that being in a cage.  Yeah, a cart is different, but if you spin out a cart, you're still less likely to hit the ground than when you crash a motorcycle at speed. 

Last time I checked, every time I crashed a motorcycle, I hit the ground.  No sarcasm there, it's just the way it really is.

So, while one can say that wreckless doesn't win, it can scare others around you to get out of your way. 

I have heard of good, experienced motorcycle racers going to car racing, and then their four wheel counterparts complain about the agressiveness of those racers.  Well, I suppose it's back to some what of an entitlement ideology.  Perspectives are important.

[spyderchick]

Someone ought to be.Never raced motorbikes.  I raced karts for 3 years and sportscars for 4. 

Unbiased, opinion.

This is honestly the first form of motorsport (or competition, really) that I've witnessed such a sense of entitlement on the part of back markers for 'thier line'.  When did people start expecting manners during a race?It's a RACE.  People are going to do whatever they can to WIN.  Mannerly or not.  As long as they aren't blatently torpeedoing or brake checking people, all's fair. 

Wreckless riders will be punished with sanctions, crashes, or DNFs.  Wreckless doesn't win anyhow, so it's a bit of a self policing process.  Ask Paul Tracy.

When you compare 4 wheeled racing to 2 wheeled racing, it is like comparing apples and oranges. You see, in 4 wheeled racing, the machine has evolved over the last decade or so to become part of the safety equation. In motorcycle road racing, the safety issues for the riders are still limited to the gear you wear, along with barrier changes, such as air fence (thank you RRW Action fund!) , and the willingness of the facilities we race to make changes in track layout. In no way is the machine a part of that equation, in fact, it is quite the opposite.

With technological advances in suspension, power delivery, and tire grip, riders are able to go much faster than before, and riders with less skill are more likely to get hurt or cause harm. A race bike from 15 years ago bears little or no resemblance to the machines you can buy off the dealer floor TODAY, to ride on the street. Now take that modern machine, add all of the goodies that a typical budget racer might do, and you have the virtual equal of a World Superbike, from say 1992.

In 4 wheeled racing, they have changes chassis design, both in driver positioning, as well as composition of the material used for the chassis and body of the machine to "protect" the driver. For example when drivers were getting broken legs in front end collisions after running off track in Indy cars, they moved the axles and suspension so the drivers would be behind the catastrophic damage that occurred in that type of crash. It has saved countless drivers since from debilitation injury. After Sennas death, F1 now has drivers seated into the car with protective body work around the top of their shoulders, and the driver is very low in the chassis. They have also instituted tethers to prevent wheel and axle assemblies from hitting drivers.

I too follow F1 very closely, and actually found the Senna/Prost rivalry to be without compare, however when Senna pulled his famous maneuver at Suzuka, I did not cheer, because I lost the opportunity to see the outcome of a race long battle. I in no way thought that the crash was career ending for Prost on a physical level.

When Pedrosa pulled his now infamous maneuver on Hayden in last years MotoGP championship, it could have ended Nicky's career. As it was, Nicky won the title both injured and in need of surgery. Intentional or not, that move was not something I would like to see repeated at any level of competition.

At a club level, whether or not you hold an AMA license, fierce competition is welcome, I don't even really care if the guys are 'cherry picking' the winnings. But, the reason we talk about courtesy, or argue that clean passing is the responsibility of the rider doing the passing, whether for position or on a backmarker, is because the only thing between rider and injury is a bit of carbon kevlar straped you your head, and a few pounds of leather and padding, before you hit (or are hit by) the pavement/armco/bike/riders/loose debris at force.

So even though you have raced, please understand that this is totally unlike 4 wheeled racing. We have no roll cage, we have no 'disbursed energy' in event of a devastating crash. We, as the riders, are the 'disbursed energy'. That's why this debate has been so heated, and why your arguments for 'winning by any means' is not one many motorcycle racers will agree with.

[SnacktimeKC]

When you compare 4 wheeled racing to 2 wheeled racing, it is like comparing apples and oranges. You see, in 4 wheeled racing, the machine has evolved over the last decade or so to become part of the safety equation. In motorcycle road racing, the safety issues for the riders are still limited to the gear you wear, along with barrier changes, such as air fence (thank you RRW Action fund!) , and the willingness of the facilities we race to make changes in track layout. In no way is the machine a part of that equation, in fact, it is quite the opposite.

With technological advances in suspension, power delivery, and tire grip, riders are able to go much faster than before, and riders with less skill are more likely to get hurt or cause harm. A race bike from 15 years ago bears little or no resemblance to the machines you can buy off the dealer floor TODAY, to ride on the street. Now take that modern machine, add all of the goodies that a typical budget racer might do, and you have the virtual equal of a World Superbike, from say 1992.

In 4 wheeled racing, they have changes chassis design, both in driver positioning, as well as composition of the material used for the chassis and body of the machine to "protect" the driver. For example when drivers were getting broken legs in front end collisions after running off track in Indy cars, they moved the axles and suspension so the drivers would be behind the catastrophic damage that occurred in that type of crash. It has saved countless drivers since from debilitation injury. After Sennas death, F1 now has drivers seated into the car with protective body work around the top of their shoulders, and the driver is very low in the chassis. They have also instituted tethers to prevent wheel and axle assemblies from hitting drivers.

I too follow F1 very closely, and actually found the Senna/Prost rivalry to be without compare, however when Senna pulled his famous maneuver at Suzuka, I did not cheer, because I lost the opportunity to see the outcome of a race long battle. I in no way thought that the crash was career ending for Prost on a physical level.

When Pedrosa pulled his now infamous maneuver on Hayden in last years MotoGP championship, it could have ended Nicky's career. As it was, Nicky won the title both injured and in need of surgery. Intentional or not, that move was not something I would like to see repeated at any level of competition.

At a club level, whether or not you hold an AMA license, fierce competition is welcome, I don't even really care if the guys are 'cherry picking' the winnings. But, the reason we talk about courtesy, or argue that clean passing is the responsibility of the rider doing the passing, whether for position or on a backmarker, is because the only thing between rider and injury is a bit of carbon kevlar straped you your head, and a few pounds of leather and padding, before you hit (or are hit by) the pavement/armco/bike/riders/loose debris at force.

So even though you have raced, please understand that this is totally unlike 4 wheeled racing. We have no roll cage, we have no 'disbursed energy' in event of a devastating crash. We, as the riders, are the 'disbursed energy'. That's why this debate has been so heated, and why your arguments for 'winning by any means' is not one many motorcycle racers will agree with.

"Can I get an Amen?"  -Snack

[HAWK]

Wow...

[yetidave]

When you compare 4 wheeled racing to 2 wheeled racing, it is like comparing apples and oranges. You see, in 4 wheeled racing, the machine has evolved over the last decade or so to become part of the safety equation. In motorcycle road racing, the safety issues for the riders are still limited to the gear you wear, along with barrier changes, such as air fence (thank you RRW Action fund!) , and the willingness of the facilities we race to make changes in track layout. In no way is the machine a part of that equation, in fact, it is quite the opposite.

With technological advances in suspension, power delivery, and tire grip, riders are able to go much faster than before, and riders with less skill are more likely to get hurt or cause harm. A race bike from 15 years ago bears little or no resemblance to the machines you can buy off the dealer floor TODAY, to ride on the street. Now take that modern machine, add all of the goodies that a typical budget racer might do, and you have the virtual equal of a World Superbike, from say 1992.

In 4 wheeled racing, they have changes chassis design, both in driver positioning, as well as composition of the material used for the chassis and body of the machine to "protect" the driver. For example when drivers were getting broken legs in front end collisions after running off track in Indy cars, they moved the axles and suspension so the drivers would be behind the catastrophic damage that occurred in that type of crash. It has saved countless drivers since from debilitation injury. After Sennas death, F1 now has drivers seated into the car with protective body work around the top of their shoulders, and the driver is very low in the chassis. They have also instituted tethers to prevent wheel and axle assemblies from hitting drivers.

I too follow F1 very closely, and actually found the Senna/Prost rivalry to be without compare, however when Senna pulled his famous maneuver at Suzuka, I did not cheer, because I lost the opportunity to see the outcome of a race long battle. I in no way thought that the crash was career ending for Prost on a physical level.

When Pedrosa pulled his now infamous maneuver on Hayden in last years MotoGP championship, it could have ended Nicky's career. As it was, Nicky won the title both injured and in need of surgery. Intentional or not, that move was not something I would like to see repeated at any level of competition.

At a club level, whether or not you hold an AMA license, fierce competition is welcome, I don't even really care if the guys are 'cherry picking' the winnings. But, the reason we talk about courtesy, or argue that clean passing is the responsibility of the rider doing the passing, whether for position or on a backmarker, is because the only thing between rider and injury is a bit of carbon kevlar straped you your head, and a few pounds of leather and padding, before you hit (or are hit by) the pavement/armco/bike/riders/loose debris at force.

So even though you have raced, please understand that this is totally unlike 4 wheeled racing. We have no roll cage, we have no 'disbursed energy' in event of a devastating crash. We, as the riders, are the 'disbursed energy'. That's why this debate has been so heated, and why your arguments for 'winning by any means' is not one many motorcycle racers will agree with.

Marry me. :)

[Ducmarc]

your right i still say give the corner worker a little authority if they see a inexcusable act let them call for a meatball if the same guy keeps getting called in then the promoter can make the decision .its in his best interest. better for one to go home pissed than lose a customer for a season or for life.maybe once  we all know there is a penalty for rough riding we might start riding with our minds instead of our twig and berries

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

I agree that it would be good if the corner workers were able to make calls like that and actually be listened to.  And to back it up, keep records of the calls.  After a while, the guys with a problem would become obvious.

[251am]

 After my experience yesterday @ BFR, working the other side of the equation as a corner worker, I can tell you that I love racing and The Midwest Safety Crew even more!     

  Every Expert and Amateur should have to work a corner at least two days in one season to get a better understanding of what the big picture is. Is your bike not ready to race yet or cash funds running low? Make your Mom proud and work a corner!   

  Wouldn't this be a great time for a piece of rhubarb pie? ( The rhubarb's even ready for pickin')

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

Totally agreed.  The Midwest Safety Crew is one of the tightest, best organised, and loyal worker groups in the world.  They're also huge fun to party with.  When you race out of region, suddenly things change.  You find yourself saying, "Hey, shouldn't there be a flag up for that?"  Only then do you realise how good those guys are.

[EX_#76]

+1 !!!

[EX_#76]

When you compare 4 wheeled racing to 2 wheeled racing, it is like comparing apples and oranges. You see, in 4 wheeled racing, the machine has evolved over the last decade or so to become part of the safety equation. In motorcycle road racing, the safety issues for the riders are still limited to the gear you wear, along with barrier changes, such as air fence (thank you RRW Action fund!) , and the willingness of the facilities we race to make changes in track layout. In no way is the machine a part of that equation, in fact, it is quite the opposite.

With technological advances in suspension, power delivery, and tire grip, riders are able to go much faster than before, and riders with less skill are more likely to get hurt or cause harm. A race bike from 15 years ago bears little or no resemblance to the machines you can buy off the dealer floor TODAY, to ride on the street. Now take that modern machine, add all of the goodies that a typical budget racer might do, and you have the virtual equal of a World Superbike, from say 1992.

In 4 wheeled racing, they have changes chassis design, both in driver positioning, as well as composition of the material used for the chassis and body of the machine to "protect" the driver. For example when drivers were getting broken legs in front end collisions after running off track in Indy cars, they moved the axles and suspension so the drivers would be behind the catastrophic damage that occurred in that type of crash. It has saved countless drivers since from debilitation injury. After Sennas death, F1 now has drivers seated into the car with protective body work around the top of their shoulders, and the driver is very low in the chassis. They have also instituted tethers to prevent wheel and axle assemblies from hitting drivers.

I too follow F1 very closely, and actually found the Senna/Prost rivalry to be without compare, however when Senna pulled his famous maneuver at Suzuka, I did not cheer, because I lost the opportunity to see the outcome of a race long battle. I in no way thought that the crash was career ending for Prost on a physical level.

When Pedrosa pulled his now infamous maneuver on Hayden in last years MotoGP championship, it could have ended Nicky's career. As it was, Nicky won the title both injured and in need of surgery. Intentional or not, that move was not something I would like to see repeated at any level of competition.

At a club level, whether or not you hold an AMA license, fierce competition is welcome, I don't even really care if the guys are 'cherry picking' the winnings. But, the reason we talk about courtesy, or argue that clean passing is the responsibility of the rider doing the passing, whether for position or on a backmarker, is because the only thing between rider and injury is a bit of carbon kevlar straped you your head, and a few pounds of leather and padding, before you hit (or are hit by) the pavement/armco/bike/riders/loose debris at force.

So even though you have raced, please understand that this is totally unlike 4 wheeled racing. We have no roll cage, we have no 'disbursed energy' in event of a devastating crash. We, as the riders, are the 'disbursed energy'. That's why this debate has been so heated, and why your arguments for 'winning by any means' is not one many motorcycle racers will agree with.

Whoooo Hoooooo!!!  Right on sista

[spyderchick]

Whoooo Hoooooo!!!  Right on sista

I've gotta stop preachin' to the choir. Can I get a 'Hallelujah'?