Why do we race?

[HAWK]

don't you guys think that half this aggressive passing in a race is because faster bikes have gridded behind slower ones and the urge to catch the leader overcomes even the most well mannered racer.this happened to me on the last race i ran and it put me in the hospital [i got 6 months to think about it] i did not chop anybody but i did try new race lines to pass slower riders 2 at a time and it bit me in one corner. this first come first serve grid is crap either grid by time or points and you Will see this heavy handed passing drop at least in a race.some of my favortie racing was in 7th or 8th with someone my same speed not passing half the field for a podium.

I agree and would like to see point based griding for pre-enteries but you must remember that in longer races such as the GT races, and when you have 2 classes gridded in a 2 wave start, you are still going see faster riders passing backmarkers  and then is still comes back to close but safe, clean passes.

[Ducmarc]

your right Paul it would be perfect but the hope is the leading riders would have some respect this happens a lot for me in light wt 40 after 4 laps i start looking and expecting. that's my other question why this long pause in a 2 wave start it just lets the fast guys catch the slow ones quicker 5 Mississippi's  is enough not half a lap.

[HAWK]

your right Paul it would be perfect but the hope is the leading riders would have some respect this happens a lot for me in light wt 40 after 4 laps i start looking and expecting. that's my other question why this long pause in a 2 wave start it just lets the fast guys catch the slow ones quicker 5 Mississippi's  is enough not half a lap.

Actually the second wave usually goes within 10 seconds of the first ( I think they actually wait for the last bike to clear turn 1, not sure about that though) , you have to remember that in F40 that first wave can have 750 I4s which can chew up track between them and you at a pretty alarming rate.

[Ducmarc]

yes Paul I've raced that class for two years and i here what your saying I've won the lightweight a couple of times but it's the only class that will make you start smoking camels cause you never know how it's going to pan out. usually first turn log jam and a couple of red flags. my long time mentor and isle of man racer john long told me .eye sight shot,reflexes shot, joints shot, no kids in school,plenty of insurance what do you expect ?

[Sklossmonster]

Okay, K3, I'll be your huckleberry.

You've now said that anytime a rider has to alter his trajectory during a race he has suddenly become the victim of unsportsmanlike conduct and been recklessly endangered by a fellow racer who's abandoned all responsibility. 

Brilliant. You've obviously never seen a race, much less been involved in one, regardless of the fact you own and operate a motorcycle on a racetrack, and like to call yourself a racer.

It's obvious that the real issue here is how one defines the term, "standing someone up."  So let's use an example even you can follow.  I'll type slowly, so you can follow my line.

Two bikes are approaching the braking zone at the end of a straightaway.  Bike 1 is in front of bike 2.  Bike 1 brakes to prepare for turn in.  Bike 2 lines bike 1 up on the brakes, moving alongside and into the area bike 1 would  normally begin to turn.

Now then, bike 1's line has become altered by bike 2.  Bike 2 is effectively standing bike 1 up by taking away his normal turn in point and forcing bike 1 to wait until bike 2 has turned in first.

According to your philosophy, bike 1 is now the victim of unsportsmanlike conduct.  Bike 2 is the aggressor, and should be banned from competition.  Further, if bike 1 freaks out and crashes because bike 2 took away his line, then the rider who  passed bike 1 on the brakes now has to live with this fact for the rest of his life.

Put the crack pipe down, grow a set, and pull your head out.  You've just described the same rules we enforce in the Beginner group at NESBA, where it sounds like you belong.

No one is saying it's okay to T-bone another rider at the apex, forcing him to get the hell out of the way or be killed for a bowling trophy, but you have accept the fact that in racing, lines get altered all the time. Turn in points get blocked, apexes get taken away, and yes, riders sometimes go through an entire corner side by side, battling, if you will, for the line. 

[tstruyk]

maybe a more accurate description of what each of you are refering to would be more condusive to seeing how the other side interprets this.   instead of pounding your chests and insulting the credibility of one anothers skills or decisions...

Making a pass that forces the other rider to delay turning in is a far cry from "standing someone up" IMO.  K3's reference was that the rider had to alter the line he had already established, to avoid contact.  Waiting to turn in and starting to turn in are both different than reaching the apex and being divebombed.

If you would stop going to extreme's to suit your argument I think you would both agree that a bullied pass that forces the passee to avoid getting creamed is BS and not necessary at the club level.  yes a rider may have to slightly alter his line, or CHOOSE to alter his line in a close passing situation.  he may have to hesitate on the gas, he may have to brake a little deeper, he may have to do something different... it happens.  but throwing a bike into a corner so deep and so late that the rider has to check up completely to avoid contact is a bunch of shit at this level.  If thats what it takes to be a real racer, Ill go bully my way around NESBA days until I'm ready to be a real racer 

Why is it when the Nesbians show up there is always a fight???   

[Sklossmonster]

I went to an extreme to make a point, which is exactly what K3 did, and exactly why I did the same damn thing.

The truth is, "standing someone up" is a subjective term.  One person's "he stood me up" is another person's "close pass" and how each rider reacts has everything to do with the outcome.

I just can't stand the endless whining of so-called racers demanding that no one ever force them to alter their happy little race line or there'll be hell to pay.

And the reason folks from NESBA tend to point this out is because the kid gloves so many whiners seem to want are exactly what we expect at A TRACK DAY. 

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

Brilliant. You've obviously never seen a race, much less been involved in one, regardless of the fact you own and operate a motorcycle on a racetrack, and like to call yourself a racer.

IPut the crack pipe down, grow a set, and pull your head out.  You've just described the same rules we enforce in the Beginner group at NESBA, where it sounds like you belong.

Is this THE Marshall Skloss of Roadracing World fame?  Wow.  Hey, I thought your articles were pretty well-written, although I didn't agree with everything you had to say.

Stop by the house some time, and I'll let you count my CCS championship trophies.  Bring both hands.

What you just described is outbraking another rider.  If he hasn't tipped in yet, how could you be standing him up?  Standing someone up (sigh, do I HAVE to explain this again?) is flying into the apex and moving the other rider out of your way after he's already committed to the arc he's going to run through the corner.  In other words, he had is knee on the deck, his radius set, and you STOOD HIM UP.

Please don't mimic me.  It only degrades you as a writer.  Your articles were fairly eloquent.  Don't sell yourself short here.  And why would YOU be jumping all over me about remarks I directed at Garth?  He's the one who started in on me in a thread that initially had NOTHING to do with racing etiquette, and he's the one who can't stand firm on what he means from thread to thread.  You weren't even IN this conversation before you placed yourself there.

Honestly, from what you wrote, it sounds like you and I are actually in agreement, but you're mad at me because maybe you're friends with Garth?  I'm pretty sure that if you were at the apex with your knee on the pavement and someone pushed your knee out of the way with their front tire, thus STANDING YOU UP, you'd be mad as hell about it and think the other rider was unsportsmanlike.

BTW, having mostly retired from racing, I'm currently the Midwest Lead instructor for Sportbike Track Time, so you're not likely to see me at a NESBA event.  I doubt they'd let me through the gate.  I don't understand why, but they seem to view anyone from STT as the enemy.

[DavidV]

  but throwing a bike into a corner so deep and so late that the rider has to check up completely to avoid contact is a bunch of shit at this level.  If thats what it takes to be a real racer, Ill go bully my way around NESBA days until I'm ready to be a real racer 

Well said  tstruyk. Well said.

Marshall is a great writer and produced some great reading material. He did have some typical "Nesba CR superiority complex" in some of his writing, but that is to be expected.  Whether or not the "Stand em up if you have to" originiated from his mouth or someone else's is irrelevant.  What's relevant is that he chose to include that quote in his article, hence pissng off a lot of club racers. 

Standing someone up, in my eyes, is exactly how tstruyk described it in his previous post.  And if that is what Marshall was implying in his article, please stay the hell away from my race tracks. :)

I don't know Marshall personally, but from his last post here, he's lost some creditibility in my eyes.  And Garth just looks like he is sore that someone is saying negative things about his CR's.  I feel like I am at a Little League competition

[HAWK]

+1

Well said tstruyk

[Court Jester]

Well a safe and an unsafe pass is determined by it's out come and it's beginning intent.
Not that my opinion matters for shit, but what one person deems a safe pass, another person may see as utterly reckless and retarded. So it's completely up to the perception of the riders involved (and anyone watching).
I don't think anyone would ever condone purposely wrecking anyone (regardless of my passed rum and coke induced conversations). I don't think anyone would condone clipping someone's wheel, and I don't think anyone would condone "pushing" or "bullying" another rider out of his or her way. If they blatantly do, then they need dragged to the infield and shot in the gut.
Nothing wrong with out breaking someone, nothing wrong with making a pass at the apex. But every rider should be confident that they can hold their line through the turn and they should offer the passie ample room to complete their turn without being pushed off the track or get their front wheel clipped. By the same token, if someone is passing on the outside, the passie should hold a tight line so that the passer can stay on track at the exit.
It's both riders' responsibility to race safe. It doesn't always happen and there isn't always enough forethought put into a pass being made. But there should be. But even then, what happens next is entirely up to both rider's skill level and each rider's perception. Not everything is black and white. Swing by the trailer at BlackHawk. I'll serve up the beer and everyone can duke it out there. I think in the end, everyone is agreeing on the same thing and pushing the same point in a different way. But again, that's a matter of perception as well.

[funsizeracing]

And I though women were drama queens!