Why do we race?

[Sklossmonster]

Thank you, Jason!  Maybe you should be the one doing the writing, as your reply is as concise, accurate, and honest an assessment of the situation as I have ever seen. 

[HAWK]

Marshall, I mostly  agree with your last posts. I especially like to see you expressing the leading rider has the line philosophy. I don't mind adjusting my line by a few feet or a light tap on the brakes but full on braking leaned over or adjustments of more than a few feet mean that the passing rider is out of control and would have surely caused a collision which should be unacceptable. I can out brake  ANYONE if I don't mind chopping off their line and waiting waiting waiting to turn, effective, but  not an acceptable way to pass in my book and this is what I think of when that unmentionable phrase is uttered.

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

Oh Chris.  I can't tell you how much I'd like to pull the gloves off and tell you exactly what I really think about you, your racing skills, and your many glorious championships ... but instead, I'll try sticking to the point.

First of all, I teed off on you because I'm sick of hearing your endless whining and holier than thou attitude, and somebody needed to call you out on it.  

All righty then.

You obviously don't proofread your own copy, do you?  We're the same guy, you just have one hell of a lot more money and a bigger ego.  Probably more talent too.  I never really was a fast guy, but I hung tough.  If you were planning to shame me about that, save yourself the trouble.  I don't really have any shame.

Seems you've backpedaled right to the spot I started from.  In a thread that was never supposed to be about this subject in the first place.  At least you had the chance to call me out on it before you used different words to draw the same line in the sand that I'd already drawn.

How would you summarise that?  "K3. you're a bitch, you don't know anything, and you have no skill talent, or courage.  Oh, but you're right.  I just couldn't possibly back down my ego enough to admit it."


That's classic.  I've gotta hand it to ya.

[Morph]

I was refered to this thread from another forum, read it four hours ago, and am still really irritated by it.

I'm a trackday regular, and have never raced - reasons for this will be clear as I air my views and opinions.  I'm sure I will catch a lot of flack for not being a 'proper racer' from those that view themselves as such - so be it - however my relative inexperience allows me an unbiased opinion.

I have been competing in this and that since I was eight.  I paid my way through college on a sports scholarship.  In a past life, I raced cars... etc. etc. etc.  I have to say that given my limited exposure to the culture, even I can tell the 'proper racers' in this thread from the posers who like to assimilate to the 'racer' lifestyle.

Competition is, somewhat by definition, the persuit of victory by all (legal) means at your disposal.  I would argue that hard, fast, stuff passing is not only acceptable, it's your duty to yourself as a competitor.

Certianly there are limits, but that's not for the competitors to define.  It's for the sanctioning body.  The sanctioning body sets the rules, the competitor pushes them.  That's the way it works.

Sportsmanship.  It's an intangible.  Left to people other than the competitors to define.

Does a boxer pull punches in the name of sportsmanship?  Is a pitcher unsportsmanly because he throws a fastball that's too difficult to hit?

No.  That's competition.

Somebody brought up the 1989 Formula One spat between Prost and Senna as the 'turning point' in motorsport.  Horseshit (it wasn't the first turn, BTW, it was the chicane at Suzuka)!  That was competition, and it was great!!  Senna did everything in his power to win the championship.  So did Schumy in '94 and Villeneuve in '97.

Some here seem to beleive competitors ought to be garunteed thier own safety be at the forefront of other competitors in the name of sportsmanship.  I see that as a Trackday Mentality.  Competition brings out both the best and the worst in people.  Humans, when pushed to the limit, can be cruel. 

If you're so concerned with being 'stood up' or 'stuff passed' - why don't you go faster?  Expecting to be given the grace of an unintrusive pass?  Trackday mentality.

I'm sure by now, even the steeliest of you will consider me cold.  I've gone to the extremes here (nothing that hasn't been done in this thread already) to illustrate my point.  Hopefully by doing so, it has come accross.

Some will argue that since this is a club sport, that this 'competitor' additude shouldn't prevail.  Fact is that some racers ARE out for the big money and fabulous prizes (or, bowling trophies) and have the competition additude,  others don't - are much more, well, sportsmanly.  As long as this disparity exists, neither faction will be entirely happy with each other.

Skip Barber arrange thier races into 'Championship' and 'Sportsman' classes.  'Championship' pays money, is more serious, and emphasises 'competition'.  The 'Sportsman' series, as the name suggests, emphasises safety, has stricter rules and enforcement.

Seems that the idea of 'Novice' and 'Expert' is somewhat out the window anyhow.  With Marshall and Curt passing all but 3 'Experts' in some races last year, and 'Experts' pissing and moaning about 'unsportsmanlike' conduct...  Why not consider an alternate arrangement?

Why haven't I raced?  Not because I'm not fast enough to compete, I'd place myself somewhere mid-pack in MWSS, repeating mid 1:17s at BHF (based on my trackday performances).  I don't wish to compete.  I don't wish to be stood up.  I don't want to be a moving chicane, and I wish to have my in the forefront of my track-mates minds.

Would I start racing if there were a 'Sportsman' class that garunteed some common denominator of track etiquete?  Absolutely!!

Is it fair to ask the 'big dogs' to repress thier competative spirit based on my definition of what's 'fair' or what's 'sporting' or what I want?  Absolutely not!

[Sobottka]

I was blown away in my first expert races by how aggresive the passing is. If you want to get through, you'd better do it with authority. Those guys will not hesitate to slam the door on you, stand you up, or turn across your front wheel.
It's the way it is. You will not "politely" win expert unlimited GP. Unless you're stupid fast and you start on the front row and get away, you will most likely need to force your will at some point.

couldnt agree with you more... by some of these definitions i got stood up by a pack of 3 guys at once @ hpt!

[Sklossmonster]

To which line in the sand are you referring, Chris?  Is it this one?

"If you crash someone to pass them, what are you costing that person?  Maybe his bike is destroyed and he can't race.  Maybe he's hurt and can't work or pay his bills.  That's racing?  THAT'S BULLSHIT!
PLAIN AND SIMPLE, BARGING YOUR WAY PAST SHOULD GET YOU SUSPENDED."

Wow.  Way to go out on a limb there.  Once again, this is yet another "No shit" statement, but when you get down to the knitty gritty, your line in the sand seems to wash away.

I have to admit, I blame myself for getting drawn into these pissing matches with guys like you because you can't win.  Hell, we're arguing something I'm not convinced you even understand, much less are qualified to debate.

I did my best to articulate what I think constitutes an acceptable pass, and I'll readily admit it's still nothing more than my opinion.  But don't tell me I'm backpedaling to your position, whatever that is, because as far as I can tell it's little more than pompous rhetoric.

And no, I don't proofread my own "copy" when I'm posting. What I say on these forums is straight from the heart, which is probably why it draws so much fire from people like you.

[HAWK]

Morph, did I read right? You approve of the Prost, Senna crash?

[DavidV]

I guess Morph is supposed to be the voice of reason amongst all of us.  ::)
You said it Morph, you've never raced 

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

I have to admit, I blame myself for getting drawn into these pissing matches with guys like you because you can't win. 

Now THERE'S something I agree with you about.  There won't be any winners in this dialog.  Considering that, it seems pointless to continue.  Good luck at Blackhawk this weekend.

[Court Jester]

I don't think I have ever watched one thread so closely. Seeing two very good writers and riders duke it out verbally off the sleeve is just cool as hell.
Besides, it gives me something to do while I sit in my office besides work. I must say, it keeps the day refreshing.

[Sklossmonster]

Well, Chris, we can agree on that.  Thanks for the thought about Blackhawk, but due to the financial suicide I committed last season I won't be doing much racing this year.   And for what it's worth, I went back and read your article on why people race, and I thought it was actually quite good. 

[Morph]

Morph, did I read right? You approve of the Prost, Senna crash?

From a sportsmanship standpoint, no.

From a competition standpoint, absolutely.  I was a Senna fan at the time, so I stood up and cheered.  Truth be told, if I were in that situation, I probably would have done exactly what Senna did.