Box Truck Conversion

[kl3640]

As much as I love having a diesel truck, the $4.25 per gallon for fuel I saw today here in Northern Illinois is enough to tick anybody off. 

My round trip fuel cost to Daytona a few weeks ago pulling my 26' V-Nose trailer with my F-350 was about $900, I would imagine a box truck wouldn't be too much better.

$4.25/gal.!  Holy @&*!$%$# Batman!

Are you serious?  I knew that it had been running about $.50 more per gallon than gasoline, but that's crazy.  By way of comparison, what's a gallon of 87 octane gasoline run in those same parts?

Also, what kind of mileage did your F-350 get pulling that 26' V-Nose (I'm guessing that it was pretty well loaded up, too), and is it a dually or single-axle?  Is it one of the new 6.4L that meets the Green Diesel standards or is it pre-Green Diesel?  Doing some quick math (based on an avg of $4/gal) I'm guessing that you got about 10-11mpg?

Depending on the load and whether or not there is something being towed, and of course the truck itself (size, engine, tranny, etc.), and of course driving style, most of these types of straight trucks that I'm considering get in the 8-14mpg range (10-11mpg seems to be fairly typical with an average load cruising at 65-70mph), so that would put it in the range of a big diesel pickup with a trailer, but I'm guessing based on rough figures.

[Woofentino Pugrossi]

Well I built conversion vehicles for 8 yrs (still would be if they didnt go out of business in late 01 when all conversion companies had serious trouble).

Theres a book that upfitters have to adhere to when building vehicles for sale. Personal vehicles generally are exempt from some rules. If its a seat you are installing that can be occupied while the vehicle is in motion, it needs to have proper seatbelts and mounted according to FMVSS rules.

I dont recommend setting up a small diesel generator to use the trucks main tank. A small 7-10gal tank would work perfectly and there wouldnt be a chance that you'll accidentally run the main tank dry.

Only fridge you will need to probably make sure its up to code is a LP powered one sicne they need a vent. A 12/120V one shouldnt be an issue.
The AC (some can be heat units also) may be a problem if the truck you gets box already is very high. These usually stick up about a foot higher than the roof. Most only need a 12X12 opening (standard vent opening).
For beds. Just rig a setup that can be folded up against the wall when not in use. Seen many traielrs at the track with a setup like that.
For the tv/sat system. Just make a big cabinet that mounts on the front wall.

For the electrical system. If you are plnning on using 120v stuff. Make sure you get outdoor wiring for the 120v and use a circuit box with GFI breakers. There are TV's, dvp, vcp, satsystems for 12 volt use. Just need a RV inverter setup (can also be setup to charge 12v deep cycle batteries so you can use the stuff without the generator).


Now for legality. Well thats a gray area. Some states/counties/cities prohibit sleeping in vehicles unless they are a licensed RV. Some tracks are that way also.

[Super Dave]

Dave, that's awesome info, thanks a bunch!  Also, thanks for verifying the dry-brake compatibility.

Just a point of clarification, are you saying that insuring a box truck is more expensive than insuring an RV?  In order to qualify as an RV it probably needs to have a galley and a head, I'm guessing.  I'm not thinking about either, so I'm not sure if it would qualify as an RV.

I think it varies state to state. 

I got my shortie licensed as an RV.  But it's not extraordinary. 

But yeah, RV insurance is cheap.  Cheaper to insure the bus that it is my glamorous Ford Taurus.  And the bus was about four times as much as my Taurus when it was a "commercial truck".   

[kl3640]

Woofentino/Dave, thanks so much for the info.

Woofy, I'm thinking that you might be right about the beds.  I only want it to be able to sleep 2, so I'm thinking fold-down beds against the side walls, and maybe the mattress on one can be reversible with a board on the other side to act as a table.  Against the front wall could be the TV & fridge, and against the back wall could be a couple of RV chairs with seatbelts or a closet-bar for hanging stuff, or even a small closet for storing stuff.  The only problem with the closet idea is that I was considering putting a door in to the divider so that getting to the cargo area from inside would be possible.  If I build the sleeper area forward of the side door then a pass through door will be a necessity.

What I'd like to do is mount the AC/heater unit (I'm glad that they make combined ones on the roof of the cab and put an aerodynamic shield on top of the cab, so that the AC/heater unit would be behind/inside it.  If the vents are a problem then I'll reverse the layout so that the fridge and TV would be on the back wall, although I'd prefer it in the front so that if anyone ever rides back there they could watch the TV while in motion.

Separately, would adding a window to the side opposite the side door (or on the same side as the side door forward of it, or both, be a problem?

Ideally I'd like to have a door from the cab to the box, but unless it's already there or set up for it then I don't think it will be easily possible.

Last, do they make satellite dish mounting systems for RV's?  I'd like to get a DirectTV or similar setup, but I don't think that driving around with it up would be possible, so I'd need a way to easily stow it when not in use.

Thanks.

[tzracer]

I don't think you will be able to mount the AC to the roof of the cab. There is an interior part to the unit that is rather large. You need the hole to be directly beneath the unit. The cab would have to have a connection to the box for the air to reach the box. BTW the electrical heating units are not all that powerful. Make sure you insulate the walls. Also the roof has to be able to handle the weight of the unit.

Yes they make roof mount dish systems. Some can be expensive. You may be better off with a portable unit on a tripod.

Do a search for RV parts and you can get an idea of what is available and cost.

[G-reg]

Why not just get a window mounted A/C unit and cut a hole in the front of the box for it?  You can buy a really good one of those for half the price of a roof mounted one, and if you're hiding it behind an aerodynamic roof fairing you'll never see it anyhow..

[Woofentino Pugrossi]

Kl, the roof mount sat dishes dont look like the home style dish. They are in a self contained bubble that smaybe 18-24" in dia and 10-12" high. At least those that I've seen. Rough price guess is $2000-3500ish

The AC/heat units usually have their own aero on the roof. But they have to be mounted in the area intended to heat/cool unless you plan duct work which is a serious pita. But Dave brings up a good point. Most box truck roofs were never designed to carry static loads.

Putting a door between the cab and box isnt that hard. Easier if teh truck you get was built from a cutaway van where teh box is actually mounted to the cab also and not just plopped on behind a cab.

Ever thought about looking for a used class III ambulance to convert? Most have a side door, power converter/gen, outside and inside storage and cab access already. Just remove what you dont need.

[kl3640]

Again, thanks guys for all the advice, this is really helpful to me.

I hadn't considered an ambulance, but I'll look at them.  Again, space is kind of my premium desire, but I'll check them out.

Another question: Gas vs. Diesel?

So I had always *assumed* diesel because of the towing capability, the fuel economy, and because medium duty diesel engines are built for higher service life, so even if I get one with a 150k then it's still good for another 150k, and possibly much more.

However, with Diesel costing a good $.50 more (at least) per gallon than 87 gasoline, the fuel economy is kind of negated.

Also, the Diesel cabs of medium duty trucks vs. box vans tend to be more spartan and are a less comfortable, a lot noisier, and so on.

Lastly, those Diesel medium duty trucks last a long time, but they are also the beneficiaries of fleet maintenance programs, so what I was going to do was to find a local dealer of whatever brand I buy (either International or Freightliner/CAT), figure out the maintenance schedule before I choose a truck, and just do that - but those service intervals, while long, are also kind of costly as compared to a regular gasoline engine.

Plus, the cost of repair is expensive.  I could replace an entire Triton V8 or V10 for a few grand, where as just the block from a CAT 3126 is twice that...of course, the assumption is that something like that would never blow on a CAT.

Thoughts?

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

$4.25/gal.!  Holy @&*!$%$# Batman!

Are you serious?  I knew that it had been running about $.50 more per gallon than gasoline, but that's crazy.  By way of comparison, what's a gallon of 87 octane gasoline run in those same parts?

Also, what kind of mileage did your F-350 get pulling that 26' V-Nose (I'm guessing that it was pretty well loaded up, too), and is it a dually or single-axle?  Is it one of the new 6.4L that meets the Green Diesel standards or is it pre-Green Diesel?  Doing some quick math (based on an avg of $4/gal) I'm guessing that you got about 10-11mpg?

For comparison here's all the vehicle's that I've towed my trailer with.

My current truck is a 2003 F-350 Superduty Dually Crewdab with the 8' bed, the powertrain is a 6.0 L Turbo Diesel followed by a 5-speed Auto Transmission with Tow/Haul mode and a 4:10 Rearend. My previous truck was a 2002 F-250 Superduty (single rear wheels) Crewcab with the 6-1/2' bed, that had the 7.3 Turbo Diesel followed by a 4-speed automatic (not sure on rear gear), the vehicle before that was a 1995 3/4 Ton Suburban with a 454 gas engine and 4-speed automatic (not sure on rear gear). My trailer is an 8-1/2 foot wide Tandem axle car hauler (15" wheels) that's 8-1/2 feet tall, this last trip it weighed about #6000 loaded.

The Suburban was definately the underdog, not enough power would be a good summary. I typically would lose anywhere from 5-15 mph when going up a hill and build all kinds of heat doing it. I believe it had a really long winded gear in it that was better for milage when not towing, but sucked when I was towing, don't even try passing someone on a hill. The only reason I got rid of the F-250 with the 7.3 Diesel was because I was planning on getting a gooseneck trailer and wanted a long bed dually for better stability and thought the 5-speed trans with the Tow/Haul mode would be a great addition as well (which it is - I highly suggest it if towing). When I sold my F-250 with the 7.3 it had something like 135,000 miles on it (purchased with 68,000 miles) and NEVER had so much as 1 single problem with that truck - EVER!!!! That was hands down the most dependable vehicle I have ever owned in my life so I thought going with a Ford Truck again would be a pretty good choice, unfortunately it wasn't. My F-350 with the 6.0 has been the most problem plagued vehicle I have ever owned in my life - by far! This last trip to Daytona had me changing the rear U-Joint while down there - did I mention this is the 3rd rear U-joint in this truck with 70,000 miles on it? Ironically the 2nd rear U-joint went out on my way back from Daytona in 2005. The amount of electrical related problems with this truck has been unbelievable, the latest issue is with the door locks and door open sensor which for whatever reason decides you shouldn't accidentally lock anything in the vehicle so it thoughtfully unlocks the doors after you lock them. Not wanting to be outdone the power brake and steering unit (combined unit - no vacuum booster for brakes) has decided that it's going to self destruct soon.

If you were to go with a Ford I would be looking into getting one of the late production 7.3 Turbo Diesel's (2003 was the last year they were an option in the Superduty's) if you want something that's ultra dependable and has alot of performance upgrades available - that engine is often times described with the word indestructable. The 6.0 in my F-350 was unfortunately the 1st year of that engine, that was a dumb move on my part. The new 6.4 is in it's 1st year as well, the scary thing with that engine is Ford is running it extremely hot to try and get the fuel to burn more completely, the heat being produced by that engine is so much that they've added vents in the sides of the fenders to try and cool down the engine compartment, those vents are combined with the engine logo just in front of the door. The new 2-stage turbo is a great idea if it doesn't have problems, but again my hesitance with a 1st production year unit.

Something to consider with Gas vs. Diesel and fuel cost is milage, the way you should figure your fuel is cost per mile. If you get 8 miles per gallon with a gas engine in a box truck at $3.00 per gallon that's 37.5 cents per mile. If you get 11 miles per gallon in that same truck with a Diesel at $4.25 per gallon that's 38.6 cents per mile - almost identical cost per mile for Diesel as Gas in this example and also a realistic improvement in milage when going to Diesel.

[kl3640]

Mike, that's great info, thanks.

Yeah, I heard many many horror stories about the 6.0L when it came out.  For some reason the all of the non-engine stuff was also bad on those trucks (like the U-Joints in your case, electrical, etc.).  Those trucks also had the first gen TorqShift tranny that was the Allison clone, and the first year saw a bunch of them losing the planetary gear!

Anyway, the 6.4L is supposed to be a big improvement.  My friend has the 350 with the dual rear, and it's a beautiful truck.  I did notice those vents that you described.  I think that they also put them on the gas models to keep the look similar - I didn't realize that venting engine heat was their purpose.  The new ones also have the Diesel Particulate Filter after the engine in the exhaust train, which is where they burn off soot to comply with the 2007 Green Diesel standard, so that affects mileage adversely since they spray fuel in to that filter to combust the soot, but they don't get any engine benefit from doing so.  So the mileage is actually less than previous models.  Still, the truck is beautiful, rides nice, drives nice, pulls like a tractor, and is generally awesome...if it holds up.  My buddy put adapters in the hubs and runs the 22.5" tractor-trailer wheels, Alcoa Aluminum, w/250k miles rated tires, and it looks awesome.

The 7.3L was supposed to be great, although it wasn't supposed to last as long as some other engines, like the hallowed 5.9L Cummins.  At 150k miles they supposedly started losing seals and things, so you probably got rid of yours at the right time.

Interestingly, the 7.3L was made by Navistar (as was the 6.0 and 6.4), and so International put it in some of their 4700 series medium duty trucks, which are one of the most popular box trucks around.  So when buying a 4700, most of them have the legendary International DT466 engine, but some have what they call the DT444, which is the same 7.3L config as your old Ford.  Those generally re-sell for less than the ones with the DT466, but they also don't have the engine life expectancy as the 7.6L DT466 (which comes in many variants depending on the emissions requirements at their time of build).  I think that Navistar is calling them all MaxxForce now, with the venerable DT466 being called the MaxxForce DT.

So really what I need to find out is:

1) If I buy one, get it inspected to make sure that there are no problems.
2) Before I choose which one to buy, find out the service cycles and the cost of maintenance.
3) Find out what typically goes wrong with those model engines and see what repair costs are likely to be.

If the difference in operating cost is a couple of cents per mile, then I'll stick with the Diesel for the durability and because that will give me the option of towing.  Also, I'll need to stop less often to refuel, which is always nice.  Many of the trucks that I'm considering have 2 fuel tanks, often about 80 gal total.  Even the single tank ones hold at least 40 gallons, so 400 miles between refills isn't bad.  I likely would try to run the tanks low as I return from a trip so as not to let the Diesel sit for too long.

So I'm going to test drive a couple and as long as the Diesel's are too noisy or uncomfortable for long trips, and if the maintenance cost issue checks out, then I'll go that route.

Next question:  I've seen people who make custom haulers out of box trucks, and they have these small boxes underneath the main box.  They are usually diamond-plate of some kind of metal, or sometimes they match the look of the main box.  Sometimes there are one or two just aft of the fuel tanks, and other times they run the length of the main box.  I've seen them where they house generators, electrical panels, etc.

So my questions are, does anyone know how those things are mounted (do the frames have a standard way of attaching the boxes, or are they welded to the box and not the frame, etc.), and could I possibly put the HVAC unit(s) in to one of those instead of on top of the cab or the box or inside?

Someone else here mentioned getting a small window unit and mounting that in the box.  I know that there are small portable air-conditioners available, and small portable heaters, so that could be another option, to just get the small portable units rated for that amount of space and use those as necessary.

BTW, what type of insulation should I use when building the divider and for the side/front walls...just regular home-grade fiberglass, with a high R-rating?  And do I need to put up a ceiling of some kind (luan?) and insulate behind that?

Again, thanks everyone for all the advice, this is tremendously helpful.

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

Something negative about Diesels is having to stop at truck stops for fuel once in a while when you can't find a regular gas station with Diesel, most don't have pay at the pump and require that you leave a credit card inside while you fuel up - a real pain in the ass when you just want to make a quick stop and you have to go inside and wait in line a couple times. Another one is if you use the vehicle in the winter, fuel gelling can be an issue, but there are ways to avoid it (like additives and even fuel tank, fuel line, and fuel filter warmers). But in all reality these are really minor issues for the added advantage of better milage and POWER galore!

A warning about running diesel fuel tanks low, this puts extra strain on the low pressure fuel pump, it's best to keep at least 1/2 a tank of fuel or more on a regular basis. Talking with a Diesel injector service locally he told me a common failure of the high pressure fuel injector pump is losing the low pressure fuel pump pulling the fuel out of the fuel tank (the more fuel in the tank the less strain on the low pressure pump). The high pressure pump is not made to pull fuel from the tank so if the low pressure pump fails it may result in the eventual failure of the super expensive high pressure injector pump. As long as you don't run your tanks low on a regular basis you should be fine.

[kl3640]

Thanks Mike, again, good info.

I'm aware of the fuel gel-ing problem with Diesel, but I thought that in the Winter they sell #2 Diesel that's gel resistant?  Also, aren't there additives?  In any case, I'm not too worried about it because it's going to be a Florida truck, but those are good points.  The first night at Daytona this year (before Team Hammer), the temp was down to 39F!

I've experience the lack of Diesel pumps on occassion, but being that I'll be mostly on highways it shouldn't be a problem.  Still, that's good reason to look for a truck with two tanks, or to consider adding one.

Right now I'm looking at a 2001 Freightliner FL-50 w/130k miles.  It has a 6 spd Spicer manual trans and CAT 3126 Diesel.  Those straight diesels that they use in the commercial market tend to last longer than the V8's and such that one sees in consumer vehicles, but that probably has more to do with the designed service life than the engine configuration.

Anyway, it's the LP chassis (lo-profile), so it sits lower than the standard chassis by several inches, which is nice for my purpose.  It has a 2500# Maxon lift gate and a side door.  The price is right, too.  The one disadvantage to this vehicle is that the box is only 18'.

So I was wondering about maybe putting a divider in 6' from the front, and having a 12' cargo area, but part of my purpose for this truck is to be able to haul several bikes, and to have room for a few things like a tire changer, wheel balancer, air compressor, cabinets, etc.

That got me thinking about a different approach to making a living space out of it.  Rather than try to divide it and make a crew quarters which I will use only a few times a year, why not try to make it like one of those Hobbi trailers.  Have you seen those?

They're configured such that most of the furniture folds up against the walls, and the floor is tiled throughout the trailer, with quick-releases for wheel chocks, recessed tie-downs, etc.  So when you're hauling you load up the bikes back there.  Then when you get to your destination, you unload the gear, lower the beds, tables, etc, and you have living quarters.

What do you guys think about that idea, and is it feasible?  In some ways I think that it might be more feasible than the divider idea.

I was thinking about putting up luan over all the walls and ceiling, with insulation, and then tiling the floor in checkerboard aluminum.  Then, where the studs are, mounting beds, tables, etc, that will fold down.  I could still put the entertainment center against the front wall of the box.  Then I'll put a roll-down insulating blanket such that I can roll it down to cover the door, so that it's insulated when I'm running the HVAC.

Also, does anyone know if installing a window in to a box-truck's box body is possible and commonly done, such that I can go somewhere to have it done?

Thanks.