BMW HP2 Sport

[roadracer162]

So..... how bout that BMW HP2?

The BMW was presented as a Middleweight bike, so was my 1991 FZR600 presented as a middleweight bike. Neither is permitted as a lightweight bike.

The FZR600 does not make 130HP and thats with the 630cc configuration breathing through Flatslide carbs.

The 565cc displacement was meant for the older 400's such as the FZR400. It's just that the rules haven't changed and someone has used it to produce the 565cc from a current middleweight bike.

The 1200cc was probably meant for the Harley 1200 and yeah the Harley needs it. The Ducati boys and girls have capitalized on it, now many want to outlaw that rule.

The lightweight bikes get faster. The middleweight bikes will get faster. Someone will learn to build it.

[MACOP1104]

The BMW was presented as a Middleweight bike, so was my 1991 FZR600 presented as a middleweight bike. Neither is permitted as a lightweight bike.

The FZR600 does not make 130HP and thats with the 630cc configuration breathing through Flatslide carbs.

The 565cc displacement was meant for the older 400's such as the FZR400. It's just that the rules haven't changed and someone has used it to produce the 565cc from a current middleweight bike.

The 1200cc was probably meant for the Harley 1200 and yeah the Harley needs it. The Ducati boys and girls have capitalized on it, now many want to outlaw that rule.

The lightweight bikes get faster. The middleweight bikes will get faster. Someone will learn to build it.

YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD! 

[Capitalview]

The 1100 Ducatis are making 100 hp stock (per Ducati).  Maybe get up to 110-120 with SS mods.  (I am guessing there).  You can pick up an older used Monster 1100 for about $8500.  $9500 with nice mods.  The S2R 1000 or SS 1000s are going for about $6500.  New, the monsters were going for 11k.  Looking at HP ratings though, LW should now include the Ducati 748 and 851 too.  They make the same, or less, HP as the 1100 and actually weigh more.

My main point was that maybe CCS should look at slimming down the various classes and running double SS races instead.  Yes, you would still have the "high dollar" bikes.  I could live with that if I could buy a 7-8k Ducati and not have to put an additional 3-5k into just the engine to be competitive in the other LW classes.  I would also be able to run more races without having to spend the extra money on engine mods.

Right now, if you run a SS bike that is, most likely, the only class you will be competitive in.  You can run in the other LW classes, but you probably won't be very competitive with the highly modified bikes.

I am betting, like me, many want to run in as many races in one weekend as possible, still be competitive, and not have to spend a fortune on their bike.  That is why I posed the question of getting rid of one of the heavy modification classes to keep costs down and still be able to run and be competitive in more than one race a weekend.


And yes, until someone comes out with a better option in the LW classes, the air cooled two valve desmo bikes are the future.  At least by the current rule set.  If CCS wants to put the desmo valve restrictions on the air cooled bikes that would change everything.  Of course, you still have the 100 HP Buell XB12R, which the 1203cc rule is for.

There is only one liquid cooled 4 valve bike out there that even comes close.  That is the Aprilia Shiver.  They make 95 hp.  They still weigh more than the Ducatis though.  They also don't have the performance parts support, or general parts support for that matter, the Ducatis have.

The FZ-07 is interesting, but it is still running 41mm, non adjustable, front end, and listed as having 75 hp.  The literature actually states "This engine is not about big specification numbers; it produces 75 hp. and 50 ft. lbs. of torque and is designed to maximize riding fun in the real world." Sixth gear is designed specifically as an overdrive too.  (This is from Yamaha Canada)    FZ-07

You are going to need more than just an exhaust and dyno tune to make it effective against the air cooled, two valve Ducs.  Which again means dropping large money on engine mods.  I much prefer the K.I.S.S. rule.  I would rather run an air cooled Ducati, which is better tuned, both engine and suspension, for racing, than have to rip into an engine and suspension that is purposely tuned for "the real world".

Yes, I know the SV was once like the FZ-07.  But that was also 15 years ago.  I would think Yamaha could have at least bumped the engine to 85 or 95 hp.  The biggest advantage the FZ will have is its weight.  397 lbs wet vs, say, a 2005 Ducati 1000 DS at 395 dry (Both being in stock, unmodified form).  The Yamaha is still down almost 20 HP and 20 Ft lbs of torque though. (Numbers from manufacturers published data)

[roadracer162]

This post is merely for discussion sake and not challenging anything that anyone has posted, but it could be construed as so. It is meant more s a response.

The Ducati 1100 in the real world produces 94rwhp on the Superflow dyno. This is accomplished with minor mods such as pipe, airway mods and a good tune. Additionally, the Superflow dyno this bike is tested on is known to read 10% higher than say a dynojet dyno.

My Ducati 800, which is essentially the same weight as the 1000/1100, weighs in at 365# on the ASRA scales. It has lighter Marchessini wheels(forged aluminum) and a carbon tank. Bill Wissinger's SV weighs in at 335# with modified front and rear subframes.

The business end of CCS: If I were the owner of CCS I would be looking at the bottom line. I would cater to what the mass' are attending. For whatever reason there is little participation in the SS class even though modifications are little, or are they. You may argue more participation would be there if it were cheaper to run. I would question which rider is likely to participate in more races the guy that is the budget racer or the guy spending money on his bike? I can't imagine someone spending $30K on his bike to only run a couple races.

In my eyes all the bikes in the lightweight class are based upon entry level bikes and not performance oriented bikes. Yes the Ducati SS was produced in a race form(removal of lights) and they performed well. It worked, there are more Ducatis in the racing line up. Until any of the manufacturers produce a bike within the rules that dominate the others then we must settle with what we have. I see it as the challenge and not the handicap.

[bruce71198]

The GSXR 565 that belongs to Bruce Barry is a destroked 600. All 4 cylinders are active.

Just for the record, I don't own that bike.  Ben Probst built and owns it. He is kind enough to lend it to us to race. And just for perspective he can put a whole bike together for $12-18,000 depending on how much bike you want. Engines are also available.

[Doublea]

My mistake- I think I read Ben's posts about the bike build on SVRider.... Pretty awesome stuff, where is he based?
I believe I talked to you about it at RRR when I was pitted with Miguel.

[sdiver68]

My mistake- I think I read Ben's posts about the bike build on SVRider.... Pretty awesome stuff, where is he based?

St Louis, MO. And thank you... you probably saw my posts on SVRider...the forum which inspired our design.  For the record, the 565 can be ordered from Ben a number of different ways at several price points, from engine build/tune only to brand new builds.  A fresh replica of my CCS Championship caliber bike can be had for about $12k.  There are options above and below that price point.

[benprobst]

Thanks guys. Just a reminder the 565 y'all have seen running the TC rounds are built and supported out of St. Louis by BP Performance. The bikes are the brainchild of Steve and I and running with the support of both of us. Everyone will be seeing more of them, as I think that every top LW guy in the TC and many sprint only e in contact and ordered or in the planning stage.  Again we are putting these on the grid with top quality components for 10-12k with rebuilds scheduled for every couple of years. As opposed to every two hours as reported by the big dollar Ducati boys. If this is the LW class CCS wants, then the 565 is far and away the most economical way to go.  Even compared to the SV.

[Capitalview]

The business end of CCS: If I were the owner of CCS I would be looking at the bottom line. I would cater to what the mass' are attending. For whatever reason there is little participation in the SS class even though modifications are little, or are they. You may argue more participation would be there if it were cheaper to run. I would question which rider is likely to participate in more races the guy that is the budget racer or the guy spending money on his bike? I can't imagine someone spending $30K on his bike to only run a couple races.

In my eyes all the bikes in the lightweight class are based upon entry level bikes and not performance oriented bikes. Yes the Ducati SS was produced in a race form(removal of lights) and they performed well. It worked, there are more Ducatis in the racing line up. Until any of the manufacturers produce a bike within the rules that dominate the others then we must settle with what we have. I see it as the challenge and not the handicap.

Well, this is exactly my point.  If you don't have to drop gobs of money into engine mods you would have more money to spend on races.  Spending money on your bike does not help the bottom line of CCS.  Having more money to participate at more events does.  If someone is spending money to race in the first place and they don't have to drop the extra 2k into their bike, they will have that money to spend on racing.

I agree, LW is based upon entry level bikes, which, by their nature, are cheaper to buy and run.  Unfortunately that isn't so true in some areas.

If someone has the means to drop 30k on a bike why are they running LW?  Why aren't they running MW, HW, or unlimited then?  I am genuinely asking too.  Why waste 30k on a lightweight bike?  For that matter, why waist 30k on any bike in a club race setting.  That baffles my mind.  Of course, I don't have that kind of disposable income to spend on anything that doesn't feed, shelter or help provide for my family.  I realize it varies by person, but that just seems like someone is trying to buy a championship.

The 565 is interesting, but again, 10-12k is a bit outside my price range.  Plus, I am a sucker for twins.  Although, I guess if I want to have a chance at winning I will be saving.  That starts with a GSX-R 600?  Might need to start picking up parts to have one built.

By the way, this is a discussion.  I don't take offense to a different point of view.  A well reasoned opposing point of view is a good thing.

[MACOP1104]

I'm going to take an SV1000 and install air cooled billet cylinders with cooling fins on it.  I'll grind the cam lobes flat so only 2 valves work, then add an additional oil cooler and route the oil through the cylinder heads.   There it is, an air cooled two valve 1000cc bike.  Sounds like an overweight dud already lol....

[sdiver68]

I'm going to take an SV1000 and install air cooled billet cylinders with cooling fins on it.  I'll grind the cam lobes flat so only 2 valves work, then add an additional oil cooler and route the oil through the cylinder heads.   There it is, an air cooled two valve 1000cc bike.  Sounds like an overweight dud already lol....

That's the spirit of a GP bike!

[benprobst]

Well, this is exactly my point.  If you don't have to drop gobs of money into engine mods you would have more money to spend on races.  Spending money on your bike does not help the bottom line of CCS.  Having more money to participate at more events does.  If someone is spending money to race in the first place and they don't have to drop the extra 2k into their bike, they will have that money to spend on racing.

I agree, LW is based upon entry level bikes, which, by their nature, are cheaper to buy and run.  Unfortunately that isn't so true in some areas.

If someone has the means to drop 30k on a bike why are they running LW?  Why aren't they running MW, HW, or unlimited then?  I am genuinely asking too.  Why waste 30k on a lightweight bike?  For that matter, why waist 30k on any bike in a club race setting.  That baffles my mind.  Of course, I don't have that kind of disposable income to spend on anything that doesn't feed, shelter or help provide for my family.  I realize it varies by person, but that just seems like someone is trying to buy a championship.

The 565 is interesting, but again, 10-12k is a bit outside my price range.  Plus, I am a sucker for twins.  Although, I guess if I want to have a chance at winning I will be saving.  That starts with a GSX-R 600?  Might need to start picking up parts to have one built.

By the way, this is a discussion.  I don't take offense to a different point of view.  A well reasoned opposing point of view is a good thing.

As tough as it is, it's something I've been forced to learn, and I suggest you try to look at it this way. Money isn't the same to everyone, neither is racing. I'm a middle class guy, so spending 15-20k a year to go racing is a big deal and a real effort that requires planning and cost control. Not everyone is like that. And placing others in your income bracket/mentality is really a waste of brain power. For some guys, 20k is their consulting fee for a weekend flight to South America, or their 100k racing budget for the year is their 1st quarter sales bonus. It's their money, they should be able to spend it as they please.


Who am I/you/anyone to say how they spend it or what class they race in. We are all exercising some form of  a ridiculous hobby, and those spending 10k a season to go racing are in many cases even more ridiculous than those spending 100k when you compare that to their annual income or financial standing.


In my opinion, the issue here is the class structure. I hate a society or mindset that punishes people for excellence. The class rules are clear, why are those who take advantage of it the bad guys. I disagree with a LW class that allows a 120hp pierrbon to race, but it's legal and therefor I applaud their effort. We also decided to not sit back and take it, so we built a bike that I think can beat it, and did it very economically. Which is at the heart of the LW class, even when applied to the Ducati iterations some love and others loathe. It's a builders class, not everyone wants to race a 600/1000 cookie cutter Japanese bike, and I'm glad for that. Some of the absolute coolest bikes out there are in the LW class. They are different and unique, and just because someone enjoys them and has more money than I do to spend, doesn't mean they should be forced to ride a 1000 or forced to ride a 4000 dollar SV.


It's racing. We're here to win. Some are here to have fun. But there needs to be a conscious split of those mind sets. I assure you, if you show up to BHF and enter MWSB with a 3500 dollar 1999 F4 with a lets have fun mindset, you will have your teeth kicked in by a 1st class rider on a 1st class bike who is there to win. Why should it be any different in LW?