Should the GSXR565 (and similar bikes) be outlawed?

[MACOP1104]

Lots of drama lately concerning the performance of the de-stroked 4 cylinder bikes in lightweight.   Do you feel the 565 has such an enormous performance advantage that the rules should be changed or the bike in its current state should be outlawed?  Please, lets focus on the bike in it's legal displacement and not the recent rules infraction that occurred at Road America.  In my opinion, the bike was built within the limits of the rulebook and it should be allowed to race in the classes it is currently legal for.  Flame on.... 

[LWT Racer]

I think saying performance advantage is bad wording. There are a ton of bikes now in the lightweight class that have similar performance a better question would be "at what point is a bike no longer a "lightweight" bike?" 

110hp+ is not lightweight.  That is middleweight performance.
160mph+ is not lightweight. That is middleweight.

I'm not saying those things because I want the SV to remain the top of the lightweight food chain.  I have no issue if another bike, say the FZ-07 is actually good, take over the crown.  I would love for there to be 4-5 different makes of 650/700 twins out there. 

Yes, the rules have been in place for awhile.  But you have to look at what the lightweight class is about and it's not HP race.  565/Big Ducs are hardly LW bikes anymore.  They have created this point and shoot racing in the LWT field which just shouldn't be.   I'm not saying all the Ducati's are guilty.  I don't want them outlawed, I like the bikes.  But the 1100's should be Thunderbike and thats it.

I think one rule change should be that the GT Lights (for team challenge and sprint) should be Superbike rules, not GP.   This won't happen but it would help.

[roadracer162]

I believe the 565cc was a ruling that allowed the FZR 400 to add displacement. I say leave it as it is. Yes some have been able to and willing to take a more modern bike and make it smaller to compete in a GP style class. I like it as it is.

Some of the same arguments can be said of the SV into the Ultralight Superbike class. There have been many an SV in the ultralight class that has been illegal. In that I mean they were one mil over legal for lightweight SS but out of the displacement allowed for Ultralight.

Race as it is. There are so many arguments that could be used. Could be where a 250GP bike has an unfair advantage and someone spending $100k on one of those. It's not about cost, it's not about HP. If you can afford it then good on you. If you are like me that work hard for the money and only have so much of a budget then that's all you can do.

[MACOP1104]

That's 2 for leave the bike and the rules in place.
For Sam, I will change my question:
Do you feel the 565 has an unfair advantage against other bikes in it's class (lwgp) and that the rules should be changed or the bike in its current state should be outlawed?

[Dragon]

From what I know, the only "565" out there racing was the one at RA that got disqualified. It was the same one I ran against at VIR and a protest was in effect but later retracted. Until there is a real 565 built within regulation I don't think anyone will be able to determine if its unfair. I can tell you that I've seen times on a SV that smoked the illegal 565 so its obvious that the rider also plays a role.

[apriliaman]

Hey Mark lets say somebody was able to buy the last year 2008 Aprilia 250GP MotoGP spec and race it in CCS,That bike can do faster lap times on some tracks then wsbk in the same year and faster then the 500GP on some tracks. That bike is very fast and can be raced in the CCS lightweight class.

[MACOP1104]

From what I know, the only "565" out there racing was the one at RA that got disqualified. It was the same one I ran against at VIR and a protest was in effect but later retracted. Until there is a real 565 built within regulation I don't think anyone will be able to determine if its unfair. I can tell you that I've seen times on a SV that smoked the illegal 565 so its obvious that the rider also plays a role.

There were at least 2 565s at VIR.   There were 3 565s at WERA Cycle Jam at Road Atlanta.  Your statement is suggesting the same motor at RA was in the bike at VIR, which the owner has stated was not the case.   

[Dragon]

I don't race WERA. You are correct about the "two" that were at VIR. I should have been more specific but the one that got disqualified at RA was at VIR but lost to TWO SV's which led me to comment that its the rider that makes the most difference.

[clarustnb]

I don't know if this was Sam's point - but for me, there's a certain point where regardless of skill difference, you create a speed and bike characteristic difference that is dangerous.

Sure you put a guy on a well sorted SV and he can keep up with the 565s, but when you have a 'middle of the pack' skill guy on an SV and a 'back of the pack' skill guy on a 565, that's dangerous.  Will you guys be saying the same things when you have a first race amateur t-boning 1/2 the expert grid in T1?

Maybe I'm painting a nightmare scenario, but it would be the reason I would vote against it.

[LWT Racer]

I don't race WERA. You are correct about the "two" that were at VIR. I should have been more specific but the one that got disqualified at RA was at VIR but lost to TWO SV's which led me to comment that its the rider that makes the most difference.

Both of those riders excel at V.I.R., well they are amazing everywhere but VIR especially.
Put those riders on that 565......



Yes riders make the difference....when everyone is on similar bikes.  But you take someone not as skilled, give them a 30hp+ advantage, of course they can keep up with the crazy fast guys.   No offense to Ben or Ray, they can flat out fly. But if they were on SV's or a similar HP bike, they wouldn't have been anywhere close to Mazz, Xman, and Kcraget.   Bringing 120hp to a lightweight race is absurd, that bike can compete in middleweight.  Might as well allow a 600 to race in LWT.   In fact I have seen one of those 1100 ducati's pass a middleweight on the straight.  So where is the difference in lightweight and middleweight then?  Seth Starns was doing 1:35's during the TC at CMP on the "lightweight" ducati 1100... 1:35's...... That is middleweight.


The Race of champions is held at a track that claims a lightweight champion for not even being the best rider.  It's honoring who can bring the biggest gun which is stupid for lightweights.   WERA has it right by having theirs at Barber, a skill track.

[2blueYam]

I could easily see a LWGP bike being faster than a modern MWSS. As it has already been stated, a proper 250GP bike would easily beat a MWSS bike on most tracks. One class is relatively stock bikes, the other can have a built motor, custom or GP chassis, the latest Ohlins forks, etc.. Now, when a LWSS bike starts passing a modern well ridden MWSS bike on the straight, then you might have a problem.

I could see a well set up and built MWGP bike (Moto2 chassis with a built motor and a MM electronics package in it) beating an ULSS bike at many tracks as well.

[Dragon]

I'm by no means saying I like racing against them. They have middleweight power but read the rulebook. There are 6 lightweight classes, not to include the ASRA class offered (TC lightweights) and of those 7 classes offered, the 565, when legally built, is only allowed in 3 of them. Those three classes (LWGP, GTL and TC/LW) only have engine restrictions. I know of plenty builders in my area alone will take your money and put it into a bike classified as "LW" and will produce well over 100hp. It just depends on how much you want to spend. I don't want I give up my SV cus it offers me more race options but if I had the cash to dump into a 565, which may be sooner than later, then ill do it. As far as rider and the possibility of collisions that may happen because of their ability or lack there of, it's a crap shoot. The rider has the responsibility to know the limitations of thier bike. I've been leading an entire race and wrecked out on the last lap and I've been in dead last and done the same. There is more than one factor than plays into a crash. Not just the speed of a bike. The best thing you can get from a crash is why it happened. Practice and track days allow us to test those limits. You can't worry about what happens behind you. You can only focus on what's in front and remember that this is club racing. What will happen when suspension becomes so advanced that it allows the rider to blow away the competition in the turns? Is everyone gonna start bitching then too? It's one thing to turn faster laps and catch up to the guy in front of you but passing them is another thing.