Should the GSXR565 (and similar bikes) be outlawed?

[Gino230]

There is already multiple cheap ways into racing. You can buy a race ready SV for 2200 dollars right now. How much cheaper do you want? Or do you mean a cheap way to be competitive? If that's the case, this isn't tiddlywinks, trophies aren't just given out for showing up. That's why we race. Build the fastest thing legal for the class and that you can afford and ride it the best you can. If that's an SV then great, if that's a 50k duc or 100k pirrebonne then so be it, for now. :D

Ben I realize you are a little 'tongue in cheek' with your remarks about the Ducatis, and I also realize have a little bit of an interest in painting the Duc as an insanely expensive bike, but I have been very forthcoming in what I and others have spent to develop a competitive bike and it's not half of what you claim.

In fact I know Moto Corse has a package deal for $15K for a fully developed superbike making 110HP. And I can promise you it will be competitive with the 565. I don't want to reveal what anyone else has spent, but there are a few of them racing and doing well.

One thing I agree with you on is the SV crowd will never be happy with anything but the sv's only or maybe the FZ-07. How much cheaper do you want....exactly.

As for Steve's comment about extra reliability and lower maintenance...... well, that remains to be seen, doesn't it? As for the Reliability of the Duc, I have over 3000 race miles logged on mine, and I've done 4 or 5 oil changes, and there's less than 3% leakdown on both cylinders. No valve adjustments to date and only one set of cam belts. I would say that's pretty damn good reliability and maintenance costs for a 127HP LW machine.

Italian vs. Japanese rivalries aside, I am glad to see the 565 racing with us. The FZ07 is the first new LW eligible machine to start production in some years and I am excited at the prospect of bigger grids. The air cooled Ducs are going to die a slow death, Ducati has stopped building the air cooled platform all together so it's only a matter of time before parts become scarce. I guess by then it will be time to either start racing Middleweight, or try to convince CCS to let the new Ducati 820 CC water cooled engine in. I think the potential of that engine is too high, though. Too close to the 848.

[MACOP1104]

Ben I realize you are a little 'tongue in cheek' with your remarks about the Ducatis, and I also realize have a little bit of an interest in painting the Duc as an insanely expensive bike, but I have been very forthcoming in what I and others have spent to develop a competitive bike and it's not half of what you claim.

In fact I know Moto Corse has a package deal for $15K for a fully developed superbike making 110HP. And I can promise you it will be competitive with the 565. I don't want to reveal what anyone else has spent, but there are a few of them racing and doing well.

One thing I agree with you on is the SV crowd will never be happy with anything but the sv's only or maybe the FZ-07. How much cheaper do you want....exactly.

As for Steve's comment about extra reliability and lower maintenance...... well, that remains to be seen, doesn't it? As for the Reliability of the Duc, I have over 3000 race miles logged on mine, and I've done 4 or 5 oil changes, and there's less than 3% leakdown on both cylinders. No valve adjustments to date and only one set of cam belts. I would say that's pretty damn good reliability and maintenance costs for a 127HP LW machine.

Italian vs. Japanese rivalries aside, I am glad to see the 565 racing with us. The FZ07 is the first new LW eligible machine to start production in some years and I am excited at the prospect of bigger grids. The air cooled Ducs are going to die a slow death, Ducati has stopped building the air cooled platform all together so it's only a matter of time before parts become scarce. I guess by then it will be time to either start racing Middleweight, or try to convince CCS to let the new Ducati 820 CC water cooled engine in. I think the potential of that engine is too high, though. Too close to the 848.

Gino,   
Just to set the record straight, my original post was concerning the performance of the 565.   I stated the bike should stay as long as the big Ducs can stay.  I believe you also said let the bike stay and "lets race".  I have no problems with the hybrids in LWGP.  After all, the bike is not legal for lwsbk.  Sam on the other hand, wants to see the Ducatis wiped from the face of the earth :)
Yes there is lots of talk about the FZ07.   It looks like a good platform for WERA LW classes and ULWSB.  I'm sure someone will push it and see how far the motor can be taken.   I'm hoping the success of the bike will motivate Suzuki to redesign the POS Gladius or possibly come out with a new model.  Same for the Kawasaki EX650.   
As far as the 821cc Ducati, my good friend has a Hypermotard 821SP.  The bike is bad ass.  It isn't too far off from a 848.  A bit too much for LW IMO.   

[roadracer162]

The progression of bikes have been this way for some time. This us the same conversation just a different year.

Specifically the 565 was meant for the aging FZR 400 and it's needed for that bike. There have been many FZR incarnations and I have the parts to build one.

In speculation, if we are going to scale down the lightweight class where do stop. In my mind using some of your arguments we should stop only after the SV is out. The current EX500 and GS500 could use a place to race as well. My FZR400 would still have a place to race.

Ultralight Superbike: some will say this is the right place for the FZR 400. Well the SV is there too.

Hp comparisons: cannot be compared, the 127hp Gino states are inflated compared to the SV numbers being stated. 62hp for an SV? My FZR 400 with total loss produces 59.8 the SV can't possibly ONLY make 62 hp. Performance; just as Mark Evry if he is faster on his stock SV or his FZR400. Guarantee the SV wins every time with the same rider on it.

Big Cash: it's up to the owner, racer, or team manager on what is spent. If anyone had that type of expendable cash I would venture to say they would spend it too.

[MACOP1104]

The progression of bikes have been this way for some time. This us the same conversation just a different year.

Specifically the 565 was meant for the aging FZR 400 and it's needed for that bike. There have been many FZR incarnations and I have the parts to build one.

In speculation, if we are going to scale down the lightweight class where do stop. In my mind using some of your arguments we should stop only after the SV is out. The current EX500 and GS500 could use a place to race as well. My FZR400 would still have a place to race.

Ultralight Superbike: some will say this is the right place for the FZR 400. Well the SV is there too.

Hp comparisons: cannot be compared, the 127hp Gino states are inflated compared to the SV numbers being stated. 62hp for an SV? My FZR 400 with total loss produces 59.8 the SV can't possibly ONLY make 62 hp. Performance; just as Mark Evry if he is faster on his stock SV or his FZR400. Guarantee the SV wins every time with the same rider on it.

Big Cash: it's up to the owner, racer, or team manager on what is spent. If anyone had that type of expendable cash I would venture to say they would spend it too.

Since I'm the OP I will respond to this.   I'm assuming some of your statements above were to posts from others:

I never said anything about scaling back LW.  My original post was in response to some Ducati riders complaints about the speed of the GSXR565.  My feeling is the rules should stay in place and the 565 should stay LWGP legal.  I do think the Peirobon and the DB5R shouldn't be allowed in LW supersport.  I think they're just too much bike for that class.  Your FZR400, EX500, and GS500 can now race in the new 500 supersport class where they won't have to race against the SV.  Just like the SV has a safe haven in ULWSB.

[Gino230]

Gino,   
Just to set the record straight, my original post was concerning the performance of the 565.   I stated the bike should stay as long as the big Ducs can stay.  I believe you also said let the bike stay and "lets race".  I have no problems with the hybrids in LWGP.  After all, the bike is not legal for lwsbk.  Sam on the other hand, wants to see the Ducatis wiped from the face of the earth :)
Yes there is lots of talk about the FZ07.   It looks like a good platform for WERA LW classes and ULWSB.  I'm sure someone will push it and see how far the motor can be taken.   I'm hoping the success of the bike will motivate Suzuki to redesign the POS Gladius or possibly come out with a new model.  Same for the Kawasaki EX650.   
As far as the 821cc Ducati, my good friend has a Hypermotard 821SP.  The bike is bad ass.  It isn't too far off from a 848.  A bit too much for LW IMO.   

So what you're saying is that we agree? Break out the cooler!

Sorry if we hijacked your thread a little, but we need the action on the forum....it's just too long between race weekends around here. :)

[roadracer162]

Agree with you both. I was responding in general not necessarily to any one person but to offer information in correction to some comparisons. I can only base my opinions on my own experience in the shop, dyno and on the track.

Certainly the FZR may have that new class to run yes. And so does the SV have the ultralight, but my response was to the scaling back of the lightweight legal bikes.

Leave the rules as it is and let's race. What may be interesting for me is submitting the acceptance of the Ducati 900 into ultralight SB class

[sdiver68]

Ben I realize you are a little 'tongue in cheek' with your remarks about the Ducatis, and I also realize have a little bit of an interest in painting the Duc as an insanely expensive bike, but I have been very forthcoming in what I and others have spent to develop a competitive bike and it's not half of what you claim.

In fact I know Moto Corse has a package deal for $15K for a fully developed superbike making 110HP. And I can promise you it will be competitive with the 565. I don't want to reveal what anyone else has spent, but there are a few of them racing and doing well.

I'll take your word for it that Moto Corse NOW (with competition from 565?) offers a $15K Superbike, but I did talk to Chris Boy/Moto Corse and exchanged many texts with him prior to coming up with the 565 concept.  I still have the pictures he sent me on my phone, although the texts have long since disappeared.  This would be during the Spring of 2013, and I was following your awesome build thread on Ducati.ms found here:

http://www.ducati.ms/forums/57-supersport/214129-1198-1100-air-cooled-conversion.html

At that time, I wanted to commission something just like your bike Gino.  Chris offered to build me a 2006 Paul Smart chassis with an EVO 1100 engine producing ~105-110 HP for $20k.  125 HP "Max" build was quoted at approaching $30K.  He also had the 04 DB5R for sale at the time for $60K on his website.  Info found here after it was posted on ebay:

http://raresportbikesforsale.com/track-day-heaven-2004-bimota-db5-race-bike/

Chris actually talked me out of another project like yours Gino in favor of the Paul Smart based approach.  His caution was finding the 2006 Paul Smart chassis and even the EVO1100 engine was getting hard and he would contact me when he had something.  Eventually, for whatever reason he stopped responding to my texts, probably got busy during the heart of the racing season...and I went in search of another air cooled Ducati alternative.  There are a few others that I knew about but I did not contact, I believe Frank Shockey has a hybrid and there's a guy who races F40 out of Champaign, IL that I talked to at a BHF event.   

The only other air cooled "games in town" at that time that I could find was Pierobon primarily being built out of Boulder Motorsports starting around $25K (base 100HP F042) but quickly rising to $40K (X60R) and above in race trim, and then some NCR based alternatives costing at least that much.

When I couldn't find anything for sale at the time for what I considered a reasonable cost I started researching what eventually became the GSXR565.  Being a mechanical moron but a good researcher, I corresponded with many people on the concept of downsizing 4 cylinders through the 3 options available (sleeve, cylinder deactivation, and destroke).  Working with Ben since he's local to St. Louis and the top guy in the Midwest for something like this (and the builder of my SV at the time) we ended up with destroke as the best option.  We found a shop to do the cranks based on information from Bonneville Salt Flat racers (in particular a guy who runs a turbo CBR600 based 500cc) and a recommendation from KWS.

BTW separate topic, but I don't believe the FZR400/600 comparisons are fair nor even the reason for the 565 4 cyl rule.  Of course no one downsized an FZR600...the aluminum 400 chassis is far superior to the steel framed 600.  Somewhere along the path to the 565 I did consider the FZR562 option.

[benprobst]

So what you're saying is that we agree? Break out the cooler!

Sorry if we hijacked your thread a little, but we need the action on the forum....it's just too long between race weekends around here. :)

Gino, what classes do you race your bike in?

[MACOP1104]

Gino, what classes do you race your bike in?

unlimited superbike, UNL GP,  Formula USA, Moto GP      ;)

[Capitalview]

BTW separate topic, but I don't believe the FZR400/600 comparisons are fair nor even the reason for the 565 4 cyl rule.  Of course no one downsized an FZR600...the aluminum 400 chassis is far superior to the steel framed 600.  Somewhere along the path to the 565 I did consider the FZR562 option.

Just curious, where do you believe the 565 rule came from then?

[roadracer162]

capitalview, - I agree with you completely that the FZR 400 was the reason why this rule came about. There were no downsized FZR600 racers that I know of. I am an owner of multiple FZR400 and FZR600 and although you may claim that there is an advantage to the FZR 400 chassis in my experience of both it is very limited. The largest difference is the weight savings of the aluminum chassis. The rear subframe is a full steel version and heavy so no weight savings there.

The suspension of the two models are near identical and the FZR400 offers no advantage.

There are many versions of the 565cc FZR motor utilizing OEM parts from the FZR600 and FZR400 or the YZF600 and the FZR400. Two different approaches with similar outcome.

The intent of the 565 ruling was to allow the FZR400 to be built up and never intended for the FZR600 to be downsized. I don't know if anyone tried.

The machine that Gino has(air cooled motor in a modern chassis) is legal and raced in GT lights, LW GP and LW F40. the reason LW F40 is because anything LW GP legal is also legal for LW F40

[sdiver68]

Just curious, where do you believe the 565 rule came from then?

.

Somewhere around 2002-3 and during the great 2-stroke to 4-stroke  transition, the TZ250 even in the hands of Rich Oliver became uncompetitive with fully developed 600cc sport bikes with equal riders.  Some organizations such as AMA proposed allowing 330cc from 2 strokes...the problem was there were no stroker or big bore kits for the TZR.  Rich Oliver wanted the 600cc restricted to Supersport rules.

http://www.tz250.com/rich_oliver_4-29-2003.php

At the time, most road racing organizations had the 250s in middleweight.  I think they simply demoted 250GP bikes to the class just below middleweight...lightweight GP in order to give them a class to run.  And since the 250s lagged just a bit from the 600 they simply picked a slightly smaller displacement for 4 cyl.  Here's where the FZR562 comes in...since some guys had already built them and the rules organizations wanted to allow something just below a 600 to compete in the class, 565 was chosen.