Should the GSXR565 (and similar bikes) be outlawed?

[LWT Racer]

I'm by no means saying I like racing against them. They have middleweight power but read the rulebook.

That's why we are talking about changing the rulebook....  To keep middleweight power out of the Lightweight classes.

I could easily see a LWGP bike being faster than a modern MWSS. As it has already been stated, a proper 250GP bike would easily beat a MWSS bike on most tracks. One class is relatively stock bikes, the other can have a built motor, custom or GP chassis, the latest Ohlins forks, etc.. Now, when a LWSS bike starts passing a modern well ridden MWSS bike on the straight, then you might have a problem.

I could see a well set up and built MWGP bike (Moto2 chassis with a built motor and a MM electronics package in it) beating an ULSS bike at many tracks as well.

Rules are in place. It is a GP (builders) class.
I just dont think the endurance should be GP rules.

I would hope a MWGP bike would crush any UL bike at any track...

[jfboothe]

Do you feel the 565 has such an enormous performance advantage that the rules should be changed or the bike in its current state should be outlawed?

It would seem that these rules have been in place for a while. A lot of time, money and effort was spent to build a 565 size engine/bike to conform to those rules. The fact that it is really fast and makes a lot of power is just proof of the effort that went in to it. I agree with you. Of course it shouldn't be "outlawed". What would that say to people?

Spend a lot of time making a really fast bike and we will just change the rules to screw you? Please understand that I don't ride those classes and I can certainly see the frustration but does that sound right?

[benprobst]

It would seem that these rules have been in place for a while. A lot of time, money and effort was spent to build a 565 size engine/bike to conform to those rules. The fact that it is really fast and makes a lot of power is just proof of the effort that went in to it. I agree with you. Of course it shouldn't be "outlawed". What would that say to people?

Spend a lot of time making a really fast bike and we will just change the rules to screw you? Please understand that I don't ride those classes and I can certainly see the frustration but does that sound right?

There is a lot to this thread, and I'll address what I can. But the idea behind the thread isn't that far off base. We built this bike as an answer to the Ducati and one off Ducati motor based bikes that were being built. Those guys took advantage of the same set of rules that we took advantage of. It just happens that our answer is more affordable, more reliable, and a bit easier to attain and maintain. I don't think the question is should the 565 be banned, the question is, is CCS LW headed in the right direction. CCS rules have always been inclusive, and while I don't agree with them always, it seems to be working. We have had good competition with multiple formats, brands and types of bikes winning races and challenging for wins.


My normal answer for the theory behind this question and debate is pretty simple. Go spend 50,000 dollars on a 2008 rs250 from aprillia, put Brian Kraget on it at VIR and run the race where he myself and maz were together at the front. I guarantee you we would never see him. Like not even a little bit. The rules aren't there for the average racer. They are there for the guys who take them to the limit. And the rules are not at their limit with the 565. The super bike 565 that I rode at RAtl and VIR is getting there. But so is the Pierbonne that a WSBK racer showed up with and crushed us at the ROC. None of these bikes are particularly dominant, but all of them could be questioned as to their lifespan in the LW class.


I made a really big mistake and ran an illegal motorcycle at RA. I risked a lot of my reputation and hindered the success we have had and will have. I'm really sorry for that and apologize to everyone. It's tough to answer these questions and not feel like I'm blowing off my infraction, or speak in a way that I sound like I expect people to believe me, I know I've lost some of that. But I'm just here to address the issues and be as transparent as possible, and I carry a heavy weight with the trust I broke and can't apologize enough.


The 565 super bike at VIR made 4.5 less hp than the 580 at Road America. What was on display was the enormous advantage our package has to the Ducati at a track like Road America, along with our riders ability and experience at that track. On the WERA board, and here Ray was referenced as just not being capable of being faster than these guys. It's downright wrong. Ray won anything and everything last year on multiple bikes. He ran entire races on the rear wheel of Kraget at RA running times just short of what X and I did there this year. He won 600 sprint races at RA last year against perennial dominant MW racers. I'm not here to say Ray or I are the fastest guys alive, but Ray especially deserves the respect as he has put any multitude of bikes up front with the majority of what the country has to offer for fast club racers.  The bike has it's strengths, it has it's weaknesses. And at the majority of tracks, 4 or 5 of the faster LW guys in the country on different bikes, the winner still comes down to ability. A few tracks really favor our bike, a few really favor the Ducati. And the fastest of all of us are on SVs.


The speed differential argument at for the class and the 565 in particular is silly. We lose 20-30 bike lengths to the fast ducs on even the shortest of starts, speed and acceleration wise they are on par. So any discussion of that danger must include all fast LW bikes.

[LWT Racer]

Thank you Ben for understanding the toic. Altho 2 of your paragraphs are a bit off topic.

Mike isn't talking just about the 565 and neither am I.  We're talking about the HP of the new lightweight bikes on the grid.  Which I know you understand.  It's about what the lightweight class is about, what it's becoming and where it's going to end up.

You've built a great cheap bike to compete with the high dollar bikes.  Which is great because not everyone can spend $50,000.  I commend you on that, it's cool and a great idea.  But this is not about the cost of the bikes, it's about the speed. 

[MACOP1104]

Easy fix= WERA.

[MACOP1104]

My opinion is this:    If the big money Ducs are legal for LW, then the 565 is legal too....

[SVbadguy]

It would be really nice if someone could post up the rules from '97 or so because I'm pretty sure there were no allowances for air-cooled liter+ twins at the time.  I'm quite certain a change was made to allow the Buells and that's what has led to the 'lightweight' class becoming what it is now.

The biggest air-cooled lightweight twins that I can recall at the time were the Duc 750s like Donnie Unger was racing. 

Just noticed the results archive has a lot of old stuff added since the last time I checked.  A Duc 900 was running in heavyweight sportsman, but not lightweight sportsman.  Also being run in MW classes. Some Triumph 900 was in LW Clubman, no idea what it was. 

If I'm right about that past rule change, I think it should be changed back to what it was.

[Gino230]

I say leave it as it is. The rules have been in place forever and there's always someone willing to take them to the limit. If you don't want to take them to the limit, no problem, race supersport.

I don't understand how Mr. Probst can say these are "One off Ducati motors" when half the field is ducati powered. Also pure fiction is the $50,000 minimum entry that mr Swiest quotes. I built my bike with the best of everything and it's for sale right now for $20K. That is with the latest "One off Ducati motor" making 127HP on the MotoCorse dyno. It's a brand new machine. And guess what? I maybe run 1.5 seconds faster than I did on my SS legal 1000DS. So it's no magic bullet.

Here's some more arguments I disagree with and my reasoning:

1. HP difference should dictate where a bike fits.....when the SV came out in 2000 it was 73HP. A 2004 GSXR 600 was 97.5. So the SV is about 70% of the GSXR stock. The 2013 Ducati Hypermotard is 95HP and 2013 Yamaha R6 is 122......77%. So the performance of LW bikes has not increased relative to MW bikes. Of course there are some people who have built to the GP limit of the rules and have more HP. I have 127. Some R6's easily make 150 so again, it's all relative and not much has changed in terms of actual performance advantage. My point is you can't pull an arbitrary number out of thin air and say "this is not a LW". If you want to cap LW HP at 75% of MW HP then fine, break out the dyno and let's do it. ASRA and MOTO ST tried it and it was a disaster. Not to mention you would have to have a formula that takes weight into account. 

One final note about HP and Dyno numbers. They are not the end all, be all. My Duc makes 127 but put it up against a 122 HP Yamaha R6 and I won't see much of him after 3rd gear. Daytona you can forget it. I did 145 on my GPS last year. The "real" middleweights are all over 160 MPH. Also, I have a buddy on a Duc who makes 109HP but his bike out accelerates mine like crazy, and we have ridden together for 15 years so trust me when I say we're getting wide open at the same place.  There is also weight and chassis to consider. The SV is light and has proven very capable. A Ducati with SV horsepower would get creamed by and SV due to the higher weight and different chassis. Again my point is Dyno numbers aren't everything.

2. You have to spend $50,000. This has been proven to be not true time and time again. As I said, (and I am in no way bragging here) I built my bike with the best of everything for about $25K. Yes that is a shit ton of cash....and look at what a Graves R6 costs....if you want a new bike built to the limit of the rule book I think this is about relative. I think the only bikes with that kind of price tag are the Pierobon and the Bimota. The Bimota is a great machine (ridden it extensively including TC at Daytona) but it's not the advantage it's touted to be. Look at how they finish and you be the judge. The Pierobon is much of the same, but it just so happens that the ones being ridden right now are in the hands of some VERY capable riders which compounds the problem.


New bikes are expensive. Building superbike engines is expensive. You don't have to like it or even participate.. That's what the SS classes are for. This coming from a guy who rode a stock 1000DS in LW SuperSport for 7 seasons. Yes it sucked getting motored in the rest of the classes but that's racing! If you're looking for spec racing we have it! The 500 class!


Not sure where to throw this one in there, but comparing Seth Starnes riding a pimped out LW bike and doing some amazing times is NOT a relative comparison. I rode a track day with the guy yesterday in which he rode a 70HP 900SS with stock suspension (the brake fluid was black for god's sake!) and there were RACERS on GSXR 1000's that COULD NOT CATCH HIM. So please let's not use him as a comparison. Along the same lines is Ray Hoffman. I raced against the man at Daytona and Roebling and if you think he's not one of the fastest riders out there, you are smoking something good and maybe should contemplate a move to Colorado.


One final note. Mr. Sweist, who is in favor of a change in the rulebook said the following:


"it's about what the LW class is about and what it's becoming"


The LW class is about RACING. For those of us that choose not to race in other classes. It's no different than any other class. It's NOT a spec class,  NOT an old man class, NOT a 100HP or less class. (There ARE classes for each of those categories, btw.)


So in closing, I say leave the rulebook alone. The grids speak for themselves! Look at WERA grids.....I believe in the CCS LW race at Roebling in March we had 48 bikes on the GTL grid....that to me is a great success! We should be doing everything we can to EXPAND the class, not restrict it. Bring on that GSXR 565 and lets GO RACING!

[Gino230]

It would be really nice if someone could post up the rules from '97 or so because I'm pretty sure there were no allowances for air-cooled liter+ twins at the time.  I'm quite certain a change was made to allow the Buells and that's what has led to the 'lightweight' class becoming what it is now.

The biggest air-cooled lightweight twins that I can recall at the time were the Duc 750s like Donnie Unger was racing. 

Just noticed the results archive has a lot of old stuff added since the last time I checked.  A Duc 900 was running in heavyweight sportsman, but not lightweight sportsman.  Also being run in MW classes. Some Triumph 900 was in LW Clubman, no idea what it was. 

If I'm right about that past rule change, I think it should be changed back to what it was.

MW Sportsman was rebranded Thunderbike. LW sportsman was limited to 600CC twins I believe. Hawks were not legal but EX500's were.

Just to be sure I understand- you're suggesting we revert to what the rules were 17 years ago?

[MACOP1104]

Gino,
What classes is your bike legal for in CCS?

[LWT Racer]

2000 SV was about 62-64hp, no where close to 73. :)  Most 600's now are between 120-130hp. Which is exactly where your Ducati fits in :) 

Building a bike per class is expensive.  Look at Mavros. So for me to build my bike for 1 class like you recommend (SS) and get blown away in every other class isn't fun as you said.  Luckily up here in the north a SS SV/Kawi is very competitive because, like i've said 1000 times, it's still mostly 650s up here.  So it's still fun.

I said Ray can flat out fly. Not taking a damn thing away from him.  He's one of the top guys.

Thunderbike is that middle ground, or should be that middle ground between lightweight and middleweight.   I see you and others post, "well you SV guys have ultra light".... how about we say "well you big ducati's have thunderbike"..  Fair right?  You can't just claim well you get 1 class and everything is peachy. 

CCS isn't going to change anything because the current rules are making them a butt ton of money.  Until all the lightweight guys who can't afford the fast bikes quit it's going to keep making them money.

[SVbadguy]

MW Sportsman was rebranded Thunderbike. LW sportsman was limited to 600CC twins I believe. Hawks were not legal but EX500's were.

Just to be sure I understand- you're suggesting we revert to what the rules were 17 years ago?

Rules should've never been opened up just to appease the Buell riders.