National/ Pro Riders Stealing the Ex Championsh

[Super Dave]

I guess I'm kind of on Mongo's side.

WebCrush...what would you change and how?  It's proposal time for all the organizations.  You do have the opportunity to be heard, and we'll support something if it's reasonable.

As for the grass...

To me, as one that's been around for a while, seems like we got away from the grass and we're infringing on the flower garden or something.  Racing is racing, but something seems amiss in racer attitudes.  I guess when I was young, I just wanted to beat everyone.  Still want to now, but I'm old enough and I've done everything so much that I really don't care...K3, back to that I have fun thing, not that I go slow...

But if I need to amp it up, I can, or I don't.  Really haven't pulled out all the stops for ten years, but I'm thinking about it... ;D

[WebCrush]

I've suggested if before--anyone who's primary occupation is m/c racing and/or majority of income comes from m/c racing should be excluded from club (ie CCS, Wera local stuff, AFM, etc) events and denied a license for such.

Yes, that just might (actually WILL) eliminate some of my friends (such as Jeff Wood). But I think that those who's primary goal is to compete in national events (AMA, Wera National, F/USA) to club race for the sake of taking home all the money to support their program is more than just unfair, but almost seems like stealing candy from children.

Obviously, its always going to take money to race and nobody ever has enough to go as fast as they like.  At the same time, if you're going to show up with enough bikes to wad every one up in each race during a weekend, we need to start doing some rethinking.  Yes, the guy with the RedBull setup has too much money--but he still fits in a club racers (and isn't exactly winning either).  But Emgo, KneeDraggers, Arclight, etc are pro run shops with funds that most cannot compete with.  

The teams with the big money and big equip. usually also have the big talent.  It no longer becomes about guys wanting to win races but about organizations wanting to win races and championships.

I think my idea is fair.  I like to lsit one of my friends as Scott Greenwood and as we know, the guy is amazing on the bike, won the F/USA Sportbike Championship as well a number of CCS national and championships.  Has the guy killed himself to get where he is?  Yes.  Does he have a bottomless bank acct to do what he likes?  Definitely not.  The man has a job which he goes to like the rest of us schmoes.  He's had to do the job with sub par equipment, older bikes, etc.  I'm sure after this year he's definitely spent more money than he's taken in.  He's the definition of a successful club racer--one who has managed to dominate a local series, take national club championships, move onto the pro scene--and do it on HIS dime.  

I'm a huge supporter of Scott (even though I'm a moving chicane for him) and hope his success takes him to the next level--but once he quits his day job kick him the hell outa CCS. :D :D :D

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

So I go to Barber this summer.  I'm out in my first session, just trying to figure out which way the track will turn next, and Larry Freakin Pegram bounces off of me.  I guess he was trying to win the first test session of that Friday.
A beginning amateur shouldn't have to beat me to win his race, but I'm seriously, seriously seriously in the way of guys like Pegram, Rapp, Junge, ect.  I do all right at my home tracks, but when I'm out learning a new track I'm scared shitless by the guys going by at double my speed.
Al Unser Jr. doesn't stop by an SCCA race to cherry pick.  Those guys are able to play amongst themselves without the fear of being @sspacked by a pro.  SCCA offers Regional, National and Pro licenses.  Those who dream of making a living in racing move on.  Those who do it for fun stay at the National club racer level.  Again I'll mention that the fastest pro riders aren't the only guys with rights.  My CCS expert license presumably will allow me to go run the Daytona 200, but if I'm not fast enough, I won't make the grid.  If a guy is TOO fast, why is he allowed to make my club racing grid?
 Mongo, you seem to not even want to consider this point.  I like to race, I can't be an amateur any more, and I don't want to race with pros.  Am I being unreasonable?  If an SCCA guy doesn't enter a Trans Am or Pro Atlantic race, then he can compete against other club racers all summer long.  This is not possible in bike racing, because once you get a white plate  you're ranked right alongside the best racers in the world.  What do you think, maybe 10% of the riders in expert are good enough to compete as pros?  So what is everybody else supposed to do?  Rather that giving me an answer designed to make me feel bad for not being the fastest, how about actually answering my question?  

[GAMEDIC]

So I go to Barber this summer.  I'm out in my first session, just trying to figure out which way the track will turn next, and Larry Freakin Pegram bounces off of me.  I guess he was trying to win the first test session of that Friday.
A beginning amateur shouldn't have to beat me to win his race, but I'm seriously, seriously seriously in the way of guys like Pegram, Rapp, Junge, ect.  I do all right at my home tracks, but when I'm out learning a new track I'm scared shitless by the guys going by at double my speed.
Al Unser Jr. doesn't stop by an SCCA race to cherry pick.  Those guys are able to play amongst themselves without the fear of being @sspacked by a pro.  SCCA offers Regional, National and Pro licenses.  Those who dream of making a living in racing move on.  Those who do it for fun stay at the National club racer level.  Again I'll mention that the fastest pro riders aren't the only guys with rights.  My CCS expert license presumably will allow me to go run the Daytona 200, but if I'm not fast enough, I won't make the grid.  If a guy is TOO fast, why is he allowed to make my club racing grid?
 Mongo, you seem to not even want to consider this point.  I like to race, I can't be an amateur any more, and I don't want to race with pros.  Am I being unreasonable?  If an SCCA guy doesn't enter a Trans Am or Pro Atlantic race, then he can compete against other club racers all summer long.  This is not possible in bike racing, because once you get a white plate  you're ranked right alongside the best racers in the world.  What do you think, maybe 10% of the riders in expert are good enough to compete as pros?  So what is everybody else supposed to do?  Rather that giving me an answer designed to make me feel bad for not being the fastest, how about actually answering my question?  

Great post Chris.... i agree 100% and that is a great point about the grid if we can't make the grid if we are not fast enough then why should they get to race with us if we are supposed to be the "same" why do we have to "make" the grid ... they are too fast for ours...

[lil_thorny]

K3, not to change the subject, but i was all over Pegram at Daytona. He was riding (illegally) on his
ameteur teamates Red Bull #12 Ducati. it was cool to watch him carve thru the corners on that thing. then he'd pull away on the banks and i'd catch em on the brakes and smoke em in the international.
was about 4 tenth's off his times in practice. those
996(i think) were fast.  I'm thinken "who is this #12
with the Pegram leathers on?" then come to find out
that it was really him. here I am trying to run this joker down and it is freaken Larry Pegram. How cool
is that? talk about sandbaggen!!!

SD,
I know you got more in the tank... and I can't wait to
battle the master. Daytona really boosts the ego....
when you do well. I'm feeling very confident in my riding... I just hope that it lasts till next spring.
I too will hopefully be doing FUSA.
Benji.

[r6_philly]

he was paid to lead Eanes around, as he did at Barber. What better way to learn a track to have a pro go out infront of you in AM practice.

I have had my run in's with Larry Pegram at Daytona. The first time I raced at Daytona, went out in TC practice to learn the track slowly, and Pegram took exception to my  "slowliness" and surely "showed" it to me when he was passing me... one day I am going to return the favor when I go past him... I am waiting for that day

[r6_philly]

hey benji, you going back to daytona in spring? I am doing FUSA, and I would like to have a "re-match" (since I never had the first one haha) ;)

[unforgivenracing]

Personaly, I think it stinks!

In general they dont give advice, nor curtious t o the "little guy" in the pits.  They seem to come off thike they are better then the rest of us.  This may be a truth, but they dont need to rub it in.  They also have their own race circuit to run in, so how is it considered as competition when most of us are running against a open bank book, rather then a riders skills.  They have the best that money can buy, and all the time needed to refine how it works.  How do you compeat with that, and still keep the house, and feed the kids when we have a job that doesnt generaly accept what we injoy doing.  The only way to compeat with these guys is to buy the latest-greatest, best of everything, (morgage the house?)  And run everything you can without crashing going full-out everytime without any financial worries.What are the chances of that.  And thats if you can take the time off work.  Its not like these riders bought their bike, equipment, transporter, paying the driver while they fly, ect.ect.ect.  This is not compatition, they should leave are awards alone.  I dont care how they look at it.  They use us as their pratice tool, then they should be pointed as being in a pratice, not a race.  Otherwise, we need a new club to run in.  Send them back to WERA.  They took the fun out of the sport there, now their going to do it here if some rules are not put in place to keep them in there place.  Perhaps a seperate race just for them, which would cost more to participate in.  Then the average guy would have a choice if they want to run with them.  

Something has to change.  

[Super Dave]

I've suggested if before--anyone who's primary occupation is m/c racing and/or majority of income comes from m/c racing should be excluded from club (ie CCS, Wera local stuff, AFM, etc) events and denied a license for such.

First, how would you implement that?  

I guess you'd need to have everyone bring in their previous years tax returns.  

I think I personally made about $11k take home in 2001 from my regular job.  Made $2800 in race winnings for my team.  The race winnings are for my corporation.  Needless to say, about one my race winnings were about one quarter of my earnings.  If you made $110,000 and made $28,000 that's one quarter too.

Regardless, I'm sure that one of the only ways that Jeff and Scott can run the PRO FUSA and AMA races is that they can go and make some money at a club race.

As for too fast for a grid?  I guess I just kind of find this funny.  I've been in club races where riders have set the lap record.  I think I set the Vintage Lap Record at Daytona in 2002.  

And money doesn't make one fast.  Might help ease the burden.  I'm a decent case in point.  I certainly don't have near the budget of practically anyone, except maybe Nate R, but I still do pretty well by my own accounts.  I wish I could say that my bikes are great because I have so much time to prep them, but I don't.  I am lucky enough to have some really good people to work with that I can get what I need quickly and at a cost that is reasonable.

Barber problems.  Well, that's hard.  If you're not comfortable and ready at a new race track, well, that's the way it is.  Pegram...well, whatever.

Back to other organizations like SCCA...might be more money and support at those levels that keep the motal people out.  Additionally, I think cage racing does have a lot to do with the car.  Bike racing still has a whole lot to do with the rider.

[Mongo]

Mongo, you seem to not even want to consider this point.  I like to race, I can't be an amateur any more, and I don't want to race with pros.  Am I being unreasonable?   

I have fully answered your question - you just don't like the answer.  My opinion is simple - if you are doing this for fun then an expectation of winning a National Championship is unreasonable.  Expectations of Regional Championships are reasonable.  

Regionals are club racing.  THE ROC and the GNF are not club racing - they are something more.  They aren't AMA Pro or GP racing but they are far mroe than just another Sunday at the local roadcourse.  Our Sportsman Series regional championships are set up for the local rider just going after a bit of fun and if they are decent and consistent a championship or two.  Our national championships are set up for the riders looking to take this whole thing further, riders who are interested in running against the best they can etc...

I keep saying this yet some of you don't seem to understand - we (and CCS) already have exactly what you want.  It may not have the title you want it to (actually, hasn't CCS changed the region names to include National in the title?) but the type of racing you describe exists.  Yes, the really fast guys may show up at Blackhawk for some Suzuki money - but the rare times this happens doesn't affect the championship standings does it?

When you talk about the ROC or GNF you are talking a National Championship - and when you go to that level of a race you should expect to run against some of the best riders in the Nation.  To expect to be a good regional racer and then go to the Nationals and still have a championship given to you is unreasonable.  

And to top it all off I think the discriminatiing against a rider because they are tying to go further in racing than you might be is extremely uncool - it's still discrimination and that is never a good thing.  The example about Scott is perfect - a lot of people owuld exclude him form "club" racing, just because he's faster and more driven than they are - how again would that be considered fair?  I also don't like powder puff classes and I don't like the over 40 classes.  It's giving people something they can't earn in the real world or in this case the real race classes.  If people really want a championship trophy they can't earn on their own talent or skill then email me and I'll hook you up with our trophy company, it'll be a lot cheaper and the end result is the same.

[Super Dave]

In general they dont give advice, nor curtious t o the "little guy" in the pits.  They seem to come off thike they are better then the rest of us......
They have the best that money can buy, and all the time needed to refine how it works...
Its not like these riders bought their bike, equipment, transporter, paying the driver while they fly, ect.ect.ect.  This is not compatition, they should leave are awards alone.  I dont care how they look at it.  
...They use us as their pratice tool, then they should be pointed as being in a pratice, not a race...  
Perhaps a seperate race just for them, which would cost more to participate in.  Then the average guy would have a choice if they want to run with them.  
 

Good points!

First, many fast racers don't have a clue on what they are doing.  So, to ask one, well, they just don't know what they are doing, so how can they tell you.  Matt Wait is a nice guy, but he always looks concussed...right?  

Better than the rest of us?  Might just be out of their own element.  Really, practicing among guys that are slower than you, substantially, isn't really very good practice.  Might give them an idea where the track goes, but that's about it.  Regardless, going to a track where you know few people can be a bit uncomfortable, especially when everyone seems to have a notion about you.

As for paying for equipment....

Racers period pay huge prices to be racers.  I haven't had a live outside of racing since about 1987.  I can hardly relate to the real world.  Riders at that level have sacrificed everything to get where they are, and they are rewarded by sponsors for their skills and sacrifices.  Some of us have made commitments in our family lives and job choices that differ from racers.  If you're a factory racer and you get hurt, you can't go back to work and do desk duty...you might be out of a job.  And what skills does your regular pro racer have?  Can Pegram type?

A separate race?  Yeah, I'd be up for it, as long as there were a purse.  That's one thought that I had.  But, you'd have to have a separate practice then too.  Something would have to give somewhere.

Regardless, a normal person can attain some reasonable personal success in road racing given enough time and opportunity.  Often, riders price themself out of the market making poor purchases.  THAT'S WHAT I TEACH!  I personally have no depth perception and my back is apparently messed up from a fall I had when I was four or five.  I'm pretty normal, if not below normal.  I have pretty normal reaction times.  However, I've overcame the lack of funds that I have, and I do ok.

Upper level riders often are uniquely gifted.  Might have acute sight and quick reaction times.  That alone might be worth a couple of seconds a lap compared to the rest of us.  Even if we had all the money in the world, we still wouldn't lap nearly as fast a Mladin or Rossi, let alone a guy like Michael Barnes.

Practice not a race.  Yes.  It's not.  

However, I will counter that argument.

How can you expect to go fast in a race without knowing what will happen?  Bottomline is that unless you can push something to see what's "broke" at speed, you have no idea what the bike's reaction will be.  Practice is not the time to ride around;  it's the time to go out and try to fix things so that you can safely ride at speed.  It all goes back to set up, which is often times lost on the club racer and track day rider.  Riders seem to be in this idea that lap after lap will cure all woes...  Ride until you get some ideas, change things based on your intuition or a shot in the dark.  Good?  Then ride faster.  Worse?  Change it back or make a different change.  

Pro racers have a better set up often because they chase a better set up.  I'm sure Shawn Higbee could take a whole lot of our bikes and make some substantial changes to them so that they worked better for him.  Again, the experience he paid for (I remember when he and his dad traveled around in a converstion van and Shawn worked at a Harley dealership) still wasn't cheap.  And the sacrifices he made in his life were more costly than what most are willing to do.  That's why he's faster.

[Super Dave]

 My opinion is simple - if you are doing this for fun then an expectation of winning a National Championship is unreasonable.  Expectations of Regional Championships are reasonable.  

Regionals are club racing.  THE ROC and the GNF are not club racing - they are something more.

When you talk about the ROC or GNF you are talking a National Championship - and when you go to that level of a race you should expect to run against some of the best riders in the Nation.  To expect to be a good regional racer and then go to the Nationals and still have a championship given to you is unreasonable.  

And to top it all off I think the discriminatiing against a rider because they are tying to go further in racing than you might be is extremely uncool - it's still discrimination and that is never a good thing.  The example about Scott is perfect - a lot of people owuld exclude him form "club" racing, just because he's faster and more driven than they are - how again would that be considered fair?

Great points.

But I can't wait to race in Formula 40...LOL!