National/ Pro Riders Stealing the Ex Championsh

[Eddie#200]

I was punted by a faster pro rider during practice as I slowed to let two much slower novices clear turn one during the Hammer day at Daytona... >:(  

They were staggered and almost side-by-side.  I felt it would have caused an incident... so because it being only practice, I backed off to let the slower riders clear the corner.  I'm just a nice guy.
 
The only reason I'm a little ticked off is because I saw the difference in my closing speed and the pro guy couldn't.  I think he was trying to catch Matt Wait who was just in front of the two novice riders.  You know, the bone head got caught up in trying to win practice...

As for the faster pros running races to steal purse money?  

I have a few thoughts too.  

First- it does make us faster to ride with them, really.  

Secondly- They don't impress me when they do that.  It's like having Steve Rapp fight Mike Tyson.  

Third - CCS should keep the ROC to racers that have a minimum of 250 or more CCS points.  Letting just anyone run the ROC is silly.  That means any top pro can come last minute and win the ROC.  If that ever happens in a large scale, I'm done racing CCS.  Also, I don't think the celebrity of having Shawn Higbee grided next to me at Blackhawk equals what I would get out of it.  Oh wait, it did happen. ;-)

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

Ok, I'll chime in on this.

I've seen lots of wheelies in CCS events.  Although I saw them, and I felt they were intentional, I have never seen them called in for an infraction.  So, first, a corner worker would have to see it, then call it in.  The worker would have to know that a wheelie is strictly forbidden too.  I kind of doubt that this is about "status".  I think the corner workers root for the everyday guys, too.  K3, can you comment?

Yeah, there's the "First a worker would have to see it" factor.  Workers don't have 360 degree vision.  As a worker I've missed crashes until I heard the bike hit the ground, and have also predicted crashes and had the yellow waving before the rider hit the ground.  Depends where you're looking at that moment.  Corner working is a tough gig, but I recommend it to anyone too broke to race.
Status?  Not likely.  Workers usually root for their local boys, and we get pretty bent when a travelling pro starts knocking our guys around.  First we have to see it...  But once we report it, where it goes from there is up to the race director.
Wheelies do or don't get called in, depending on the worker, the rider, when and why he pulled the "illegal celebration," and how safe it was.  The info, if there is any, is then called in and the race director decided what to do about it.  The best way to get BUSTED is to clown around during a red flag.  Corner workers may lynch you for that! :o >:( >:( >:(

[StuartV666]

I must admit, I'm getting a little annoyed with you and your condiscending attitude. [snip]

Pros race for a living.[snip]

An excellent post, Chris. Very well spoken (written?). And I happen to agree with you.

But, you have not answered the question I posed you earlier, and I think Mongo has said the same thing.

How would you like to define "Pro"? Please formulate and post a proposal for what should go in the rulebook to separate the Pros from the Experts. Personally, I have not been able to think of an acceptable way to codify this sentiment.

- Stu

[Super Dave]

But, you have not answered the question I posed you earlier, and I think Mongo has said the same thing.

How would you like to define "Pro"? Please formulate and post a proposal for what should go in the rulebook to separate the Pros from the Experts. Personally, I have not been able to think of an acceptable way to codify this sentiment.

- Stu

I agree Stu.  How would you define it?

First, an expert with a reasonable number of points can apply for an AMA pro license.  That gives the rider the ability to attempt to quailfy for AMA pro road races.  Same goes for FUSA.  You can buy the license, but it doesn't make one fast.

And why is this stealing?  It's a race, so if a person competes and does better, they should win.  If you have a 3mm overbore kit in your GSXR600 and you race it in Middleweight Supersport, you should be bumped out...

Any one want to guess the name of the Midwest rider with that motor?

...Do most of us recognize Larry Denning's name?  Larry makes good money racing for Yamaha money.  Used to just pound him when I was really fast, but family and trying to build a school has taken a bit out of me.  I think Larry (Lightnin' Larry on the board here) takes in over $50k.  Yeah, a lot goes into his program too.  He does this as his job.  So, Larry can't race for Yamaha money anymore in CCS?

I fully expect myself to go out an beat him.

When Scott Russell showed up in 1989 at Blackhawk for Suzuki Money on his Yoshimura Katana...I didn't care.  I still wanted to beat him.

You can't really differentiate an expert or a pro.  Really are the same thing, in a way.  Might be more of a state of mind.  If were talking about ROC...well, then it's just a state of class or no class.  If that person can't understand the common courtesy...well, then I think we've got our set up for the boxing fight....
 ;D

[nick_tulloh]

Dave and Stu,

It's impossible to legislate morality, to dictate common sense or to mandate sportsmanship. In my opinoin Rapp violated all three of those at Daytona this year, not to mention almost running me over with his pit bike and getting in the way when I was videotaping (I just shot over his head). I can't conceive of a rule that would keep the 'pros' out and not invoke the law of unintended consequence. Witness the AMA's latest of a long line of fiascos fumbling around with rules (sorry, regulations) on who can practice when.

I'll continue to live by my three racing goals:

1) Have fun
2) Fall down as little as possible
3) Don't finish last

If some factory-supported (or near enough) numb-nut laps me and makes goal one a lap shorter, so be it. There's classless idiots everywhere. If someone I've been racing with all year laps me, more power to him.

On the other hand, if I hear one of the 'pros', just one, bitch about 'backmarkers' it's going to be two out of three in the parking lot.

What the hell, CMRA has left CCS anyway and Haner has the class to pull off on the last lap. What do I care?

Nick

[Super Dave]

Dave and Stu,

It's impossible to legislate morality, to dictate common sense or to mandate sportsmanship.

Nick

Oh, well put, Nick.

The question really is:

Is it time to have a three tier licensing system...

• An entry level amateur system.  Maximum duration of being an amateur maybe a full season.  Limited classes, no purse, no awards.
• A sportsman level system.  Events with more classes, contingencies, maybe a minor amount a purse, awards.  Meant to be a final destination for most racers.  One that fun in competition is stressed.
• Finally, an expert class that has limited classes, higher entry fees, larger purses, CCS entry contingencies for top placing racers in the final class series points, continencies, no awards.

Mongo, have you ever thought of that?

[1fastmofo]

Hmmm...

I think there are allot of ways you could define pro. Now doing so and keeping everyone happy, that's Impossible! Look at the huge debate between yellow and white plates that went on. I could attend a bunch of races do reasonably well, maybe hit a double point weekend and BAM I got my 500 points. According to CCS, I'm now an expert.

Does that mean I'm a Pro? Hell no. Sure an expert could obtain an AMA license and race in AMA, does that make him a pro? I dunno, it depends on how you define it, which seems to be the major issue here.

I think about it this way, if a high school basketball player (yellow plate) skips college (white plate) and goes directly to the NBA (PRO) he is not allowed to go back and compete in college.

There's my definition. Maybe that should be the cutoff. If you race in AMA, you're all done with CLUB racing. If you receive a salary, no matter how much to race... you're a Pro. Sponsorship probably doesn't mean salary here in this case.

I want to race against guys who are faster than me. Do I want to CLUB race against someone who does it for a living? Nope. That's not Club racing. Swwoping in to win one race is class less. What does it prove? Doesn't a "Pro" want to race against faster people too? What do they learn racing against us "slow" club racers.

 Then again I'm only a first year racer. I do like the discussion though. Notice I didn't use the word arguing.  ;D

Ray

[Super Dave]

I think about it this way, if a high school basketball player (yellow plate) skips college (white plate) and goes directly to the NBA (PRO) he is not allowed to go back and compete in college.

There's my definition. Maybe that should be the cutoff. If you race in AMA, you're all done with CLUB racing. If you receive a salary, no matter how much to race... you're a Pro. Sponsorship probably doesn't mean salary here in this case.

The problem with the basketball concept is that riders are at different points in their careers at various ages.  Ed Key has raced a long time.  Before I started racing, Ed raced club races and as an AMA 250 GP rider for some time.  Eventually, he had to get away from bikes because of problems with his wrist.  He returned to CCS racing.  Under your analogy, he's done.  Same would be for Todd Harrington.  Todd raced under the Team Muzzy Kawasaki banner several years ago.  Got let go.  Came back to racing, as an expert.  Jeff Purk put the hammer down to try and do the AMA Superbike series one year.  Was kind of disaterous.  I could see that his confidence was gone.  Probably took him a half a year to get his act back together.

Salary?  Hmm, here's an interesting scanario.  In the late eighties, some riders were paying for their factory rides.  So, no salary.  Might have been bonuses for race performance.  Kind of bunks a salary issue.

I don't think there is a way to do it unless there is just a three tier system.  It would reduce problems in sand bagging amateurs.  It would allow for a great series of guys having fun.  And there would still be the class for guys that are trying to make something more of themselve or are always chasing for a faster lap.

[StuartV666]

I agree Stu.  How would you define it?

I don't see a way to do it. That's why I have been agreeing with Mongo on this subject.

You can't just say "if you're employed by a factory, you're a Pro, not an Expert." Excluding somebody based on who their employer is is kind of ridiculous. And probably not enforceable. I mean, if I'm Miguel Duhamel, I've probably already incorporated Miguel Duhamel, Inc. and I am just an employee of MDI, not Honda, anyway, so how would you enforce this rule against me. My pay stubs and tax returns will show that I'm not employeed by a factory.

I don't think you can base it on income. How do you distinguish the income of Rapp from somebody who makes an equal amount of money but not related to racing?

I don't think you can base it on points. I mean, how many CCS points has Rapp or Duhamel earned lately?

You can't base it on what series people run, because there's too many guys that run in AMA Nationals that we all agree should not be excluded from normal Expert races.

I suppose you could come up with some kind of rule that has specifics for each National class, and base it on how high you've been in the points in that class. E.g. If you've been in the top 10 in AMA Supersport or Superbike in the last year, you're Pro. If you've been in the top 5 in Superstock or Thunderbike, you're Pro. But that seems kinda hokey to me, and I'd say, depending on specifically where you draw the line, you're either going to exclude people you shouldn't or not exclude people that you really intended to.

And at the end of the day, it comes down to what Mongo has been saying. It's a regional series. That doesn't mean it's kindergarten. That just means it's a smaller pool of competition, with a lower reward for winning. But that doesn't mean that there should be an upper limit on the talent that's allowed to compete. There should always be an Unlimited class. And for the racers themselves, that is Expert status.

The real thing that will (and should) keep "pros" from running Regionals is the risk vs. reward. There is a high risk and the reward is low, compared to the potential rewards at National events. And that formula works. You almost never see real "pros" racing at Regionals. It's not worth it to them to risk hurting themselves for a $200 purse, when they've got a $2000 purse on the line in a couple of weeks.

I think the only REAL beef people here have is "pros" showing up for the ROC and winning "National" Championships. And for that, I don't think the solution is to discriminate between Pros and Experts. I think the solution is to discriminate between the people who have actually run the series and people who haven't.

For that, I have not been able to come up with a better solution than Dafan's proposal. So, I'm espousing it. Treat the ROC like a 2-race series. The first "race" is the respective Regional series. The winner of each class gets 65 points. I.e. All the Regional champs get 65 points coming into the ROC. The top 50 in each class in each region get points according to the usual race points schedule. Then, the finishers at the ROC get points on the same schedule. I.e. the race winner gets 65 points. If the winner is also a Regional champ in that class, then they have 130 points and are the undisputed National champ. In the case of a tie, whoever finishes better at the ROC itself gets it. I.e. if a Regional 2nd place wins the race at the ROC and a Regional champ finishes 2nd, then they would be tied on points, so the person who actually won the ROC race would be the National Champ.

I think a solution like this for the ROC would solve everybody's issues. And without having to come up with some cockamimie rule to exclude Pros.

- Stu

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

An excellent post, Chris. Very well spoken (written?). And I happen to agree with you.

- Stu

Thank you.  I put a lot of time and thought into it.  I really don't enjoy ranting and raving...

How would you like to define "Pro"? Please formulate and post a proposal for what should go in the rulebook to separate the Pros from the Experts. Personally, I have not been able to think of an acceptable way to codify this sentiment.

- Stu

An excellent point.  I know that I'm not qualified to make that judgement.  And as was stated earlier, no ruling would please everyone.

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

Dave and Stu,

It's impossible to legislate morality, to dictate common sense or to mandate sportsmanship. In my opinoin Rapp violated all three of those at Daytona this year
Nick

Absolutely!

I'll continue to live by my three racing goals:

1) Have fun
2) Fall down as little as possible
3) Don't finish last


Nick

Love it!  You've perfectly described right where my mindset is, and also the attitude of the vast majority of club-level experts.

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

Is it time to have a three tier licensing system...

• An entry level amateur system.  Maximum duration of being an amateur maybe a full season.  Limited classes, no purse, no awards.
• A sportsman level system.  Events with more classes, contingencies, maybe a minor amount a purse, awards.  Meant to be a final destination for most racers.  One that fun in competition is stressed.
• Finally, an expert class that has limited classes, higher entry fees, larger purses, CCS entry contingencies for top placing racers in the final class series points, continencies, no awards.

An excellent idea, and one that I would be behind 100%  I really think that a system like this might allow CCS to retain many racers who just find that they don't enjoy racing as an expert in the current, two-tier system.  And of course, retaining racers means a bigger bottom line for CCS...