National/ Pro Riders Stealing the Ex Championsh

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

For that, I have not been able to come up with a better solution than Dafan's proposal. So, I'm espousing it. Treat the ROC like a 2-race series. The first "race" is the respective Regional series. The winner of each class gets 65 points. I.e. All the Regional champs get 65 points coming into the ROC. The top 50 in each class in each region get points according to the usual race points schedule. Then, the finishers at the ROC get points on the same schedule. I.e. the race winner gets 65 points. If the winner is also a Regional champ in that class, then they have 130 points and are the undisputed National champ. In the case of a tie, whoever finishes better at the ROC itself gets it. I.e. if a Regional 2nd place wins the race at the ROC and a Regional champ finishes 2nd, then they would be tied on points, so the person who actually won the ROC race would be the National Champ.

I think a solution like this for the ROC would solve everybody's issues. And without having to come up with some cockamimie rule to exclude Pros.

- Stu

This is very logical, and in leiu of a three tier system, would at least put some fairness and legitimacy into the concept of crowning National Champions at the ROC.
So...  Should these proposals be forwarded to CCS?  We can't just assume that they will read this thread and decide that the ideas are good and changes should be made.  What is the consensus?

[unforgivenracing]

In referance to my last posting on this subject:  I am sticking to my guns.
 >:(
Give em there own race.  
If they want to run us (and are pocket book) with all the best of the best, so there is no light at the end of the tunnel for us to look for then The rules need to change.  A different catagory would fix it I think.  If you are doing too good as a am./ the officials move you to EX.  So what gives with taking these guys and putting them with us in ex.  This isnt the type of compatition I am willing to be a part of.  Why not put us all in one race then........Am, EX, Pro, whatever.  Plate color doesent matter for scoring so on.  (better get more chuck-wagons).  What is the differance then what is going on here.  Would you by a lotto ticket if you KNEW you wouldnt win.  How about paying top dollar for a house while it was on fire?  Not me thanks :P

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

Yeah, there's the "First a worker would have to see it" factor.  Workers don't have 360 degree vision.  As a worker I've missed crashes until I heard the bike hit the ground, and have also predicted crashes and had the yellow waving before the rider hit the ground.  Depends where you're looking at that moment.  Corner working is a tough gig, but I recommend it to anyone too broke to race.
Status?  Not likely.  Workers usually root for their local boys, and we get pretty bent when a travelling pro starts knocking our guys around.  First we have to see it...  But once we report it, where it goes from there is up to the race director.
Wheelies do or don't get called in, depending on the worker, the rider, when and why he pulled the "illegal celebration," and how safe it was.  The info, if there is any, is then called in and the race director decided what to do about it.

     I should have mentioned that 2 corner workers were watching this as it happened and by the look on the female corner workers face she thought I was going to crash trying to avoid this guy. She was pointing right at us when it happened and the other corner worker was looking right at us too. As far as the local guy thing goes, this 'Pro' guy is a local guy also, no need for names.

     I wasn't trying to make a big deal out of it, just giving an example of my experience with a 'Pro' guy that thought he owned the track.

[Mongo]

Mongo, you are SADLY mistaken. Not EVERY post has said this loud and clear. May I suggest you read each and every post WITHOUT prejudice

I have a problem having the championship awarded to people who have NO regular involvement during the season.

Okay - if that's what you've been trying to say in a nutshell then I apologize - because that's not what I've been getting form your posts.  It seems that what you want is a qualification system for the ROC and it's got nothing to do with who runs it so long as they qualify for it rather than showing up ONLY for that race.  However until now I don't believe you mentioned that sorry.  If indeed this is what you mean, I totally agree (that's why ours is done that way).  However if anyone qualifies then it shouldn't matter who they are, how long they've been riding, how big their truck is or who their sponsors are.

[Mongo]

I must admit, I'm getting a little annoyed with you and your condiscending attitude.  Now it comes out that you've never raced, yet you come off as the grand authority on how racers think.  I saw a tee-shirt once that said, "Better a racer for a moment than a spectator for life."  I guess we now know where you stand.
I have won eight regional championships, and took a fifth at the ROC.  I have stated continuiously in my posts that there are local experts who can smoke me for now, and I'm OK with that.  Read the posts again if you think I'm lying.
I have complained about pros taking championships from the club racers who are better than me.  Is that whining that I should be the champion?  Only in your world.  
I will admit that it is a clever ploy on your part to try and make it all about me.    That way you don't have to give a rational reply to the points that I bring up.  This is a common practice in debate.  When you realize that you can't outreason your opponent, you attack him personally instead and hope he'll give up.  Sometimes effective, but in reality it's a sign of weakness.
 
Pros race for a living.  They get factory support.  They have sponsorship that club racers can only dream of.  They've earned it.  More power to them.  But when they come steal a club racing championship just to take the purse money, that is low. They've already been there and done that.  They should stay away from the club racing championship because they are pros.  I should stay away from the amateur classes because I am an expert.
Club level experts realize that not every rider on the track can run their pace.  They cut the slower guys a few inches of room, because as the race director says during the riders meeting at every CLUB RACE, "We've all got to go to work on Monday morning."  Pros, from what I've seen, think that every inch of the track is their God-given property, and anyone who ventures into their chosen line will be hit.  (Then berated for getting in the way, even though it is the overtaking rider's responsibility to pass safely.)  Fifteen years of corner working and five years of racing have not shown me otherwise.  If that is how you must ride to be a pro, fine.  Go race pro.
This isn't rocket science.  Every other form of motorsport has multiple levels.  Motorcycle racing has two, beginner or pro.  Covers a wide spectrum of skill, doesn't it?  Get your licence, race a bunch of classes at one poorly-attended double points weekend, earn 500 points, and you're ready to take on the guys who race for a living.  Is everybody else wrong?  If an expert wants to try racing with the pros, let them go to a pro race.  Otherwise, keep the pros in the pro races.
I suppose that it's only fair to let the pros poach the Suzuki or Yamaha money at a club race.  They still have to beat the local fast experts, and that's often harder said than done.  But at the ROC or GNF, pro poachers should be banned.  They didn't spend a whole year running the class at the regional level, so they have no right to vie for the national championship.  Can a football team just show up at the Super Bowl and play for the championship?  No.  The right to compete for a championship is earned throughout the season.
Now then.  Would you care to actually address my points in an adult fasion, or would you prefer to just continue to insult me?

Where have I insulted you? I can if you'd like - how's this one, 5th at the ROC doesn't make you fast enough to even be slightly concerned about the whole thing now does it?  Sorry but you're the condescending one.  I've been trying to have a conversation about this issue to get more insight - that's how I have gotten information and how I have an idea of what racers really want, for the last 17 years.  It's actually not all that

It's funny how now you've come to the crux of this matter being qualifying for the final race of the year.  Guess how WERA has done the GNF for as long as I've been involved with it and at least 10 years prior to that?  You know, if you'd brought this up sooner then we'd have been on the same side in this for the last week or so...

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

Where have I insulted you? I can if you'd like - how's this one, 5th at the ROC doesn't make you fast enough to even be slightly concerned about the whole thing now does it?  

Well, you'd be right if it was all about me.  The whole reasion I got so ruffled by this thread was because of the Rapp/Janisch thing.  It's happened before and will probably happen again, but I've raced against my friend Jessie for a couple years and really wanted to see him win a National Championship.
ROC wood on my wall?  It would be hard to make me feel insulted about that... ;D

And I'd still prefer not to have to race against the guys who do it for a living.  They don't have the job and the mortgage in their minds on the first lap, and they just ride with different levels of risk and agression than the rest of us.
This isn't about winning.  It's about surviving.  Local fast guys can run the same lap times as travelling pros, but they've been racing with the slower locals for years and know how much slack each needs to be passed safely.  Hobby racers like me don't mind being beaten, we mind being stuffed, slammed, injured and then verbally abused by poaching professionals who have no sense of responsibility to anything but winning the purse money.
As I said before, if that's what it takes to be a pro, go race pro.  There are plenty of club racers who would rather compete than run track days, but we're too fast to be amateurs and with no desire to be pros.  Rosno suggested a three tier system, but some could argue that CCS has that already with  Amateur, Expert and Formula USA.  The real problem is that the guys from the top level can still dip back to the middle level whenever they want.  That's dangerous (and a bit unfair) for the guys in the middle.  As a reasonably quick expert, I'd LOVE to dip back into the amateur ranks to steal their trophys and money... No, wait...  I wouldn't like that.  That's why I took a white plate in the first place...
I've been asked to come up with a definition of pro.  Here's my take on it.  I don't know how WERA does it, but FUSA and AMA require a special license to be a competitor.  If you licence as a pro and run those races, you would be ineligable to run club races with experts that year.  If in later years you decided to be an expert instead of a pro, just don't buy the pro license and don't compete in pro races that season.  One or the other.  This would probably make the majority of the people responding to this thread happy.  I know that it would resolve all the complaints I have made in this thread.

[Mongo]

So you're saying you'd like to limit the guys who want to push themselves by racing against the actual Pros to not being able to go club racing - how is that fair?  

[Mongo]

It's about surviving.  Local fast guys can run the same lap times as travelling pros, but they've been racing with the slower locals for years and know how much slack each needs to be passed safely.  Hobby racers like me don't mind being beaten, we mind being stuffed, slammed, injured and then verbally abused by poaching professionals who have no sense of responsibility to anything but winning the purse money.
 

So it has nothing to do with winning?  Sorry but that's bullshit.  The whole thread is about Rapp winning Jesse's championship.  If you'd like to start a thread about dangerous riding you'll get no argument from me that it's unnacceptable.

I am curious, you accuse me of taking things off topic when I haven't done so - would you care to rail on yourself a bit?  

More later but I have work to do.

In the meantime please try to separate what you're are arguing about into clearer categories - rough riding, no qualification for the ROC, and fast guys taking stuff from the slower club racers.

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

I am curious, you accuse me of taking things off topic when I haven't done so - would you care to rail on yourself a bit?  

In the meantime please try to separate what you're are arguing about into clearer categories - rough riding, no qualification for the ROC, and fast guys taking stuff from the slower club racers.

I don't think I had accused you about taking things off topic.  Yes, I am discussing several topics at once here, but at least to me they are interrelated.  Because I'm enjoying the opportunity to discuss these things with you, I will continue to address all three of my concerns.
I don't think "rough riding" is necessarily what I'm talking about.  That really sounds like it would have to be malicious and intentional.  Pros race differently from most experts.  They are faster and more agressive.  They can't just "turn it off" when they race club guys, and the mix of styles is what causes the problems.  I think that few pros would willfully punt slower experts for fun...

The ROC qualifying thing has been talked to death.  This race should be the final destination for club racers who have spent the year working towards Daytona as their goal.  If a rider hasn't spent the year earning the right to compete for a national championship, many of us feel that he should not be allowed into the final race.  In the case of a pro racer, he stands an excellent chance of winning the race against the club racers.  To crown any racer as the National Champion  when he did not contest the series all summer is disgraceful, and makes the entire preceding season rather meaningless.  Several good suggestions have been made on this thread to remidy that problem.

To paraphrase the comments of several posts on this thread, it is clear that many of us feel that Expert  club level racing is still "Amateur Racing," as opposed to Pro racing.  As you would not let the experts poach the amateur trophies and money, you should not let the pros poach from the experts.

You said that I wasn't being truthfull when I said that it wasn't about winning.  Perhaps in a sense you are right, but yet again, I'll point out that it isn't about ME winning.  I'm half-a-lap per sprint race off a winning pace, as are probably half the experts involved in club racing.  Exempting the pros from expert level club racing will not suddenly earn me money or trophies.  It's really more about the spirit of club racing.  Consider if there was money involved in winning a high school football game.  Should an NFL player with an evening off be allowed to compete and maul the kids for a chance at some spare spending money?  And after all, isn't it really all about the money?  Why would a pro racer risk his body and his equipment in a club race if it wasn't for money?  He's already proven that he can win regularly at that level and has moved on.  That's why we call this behavior poaching.  Club racing should be something that you graduate from, or stay with if that's as far as you wish to climb the ladder.

I had mentioned previously that racers too experienced for amateur and not willing or able to race at the level of pro riders feel a bit squeezed with the current "catch-all" status of expert.  It seems that many of the friends That I have made through racing have scaled back or quit racing because of this.  It seems like that would be costing the club money, doesn't it?  I guess that this would be yet a fourth topic?

Because of your position in WERA, it is interesting to be able to discuss these issues with you.  It is especially nice when we don't waste brain power trying to make each other angry!

  

[Mongo]

Well, with that post I agree.  Except the money part, the vast majority of riders fade out after a couple of years, and most of them never reach Expert status much less get burned out because of who they are racing against.  Not having to race against the pros at the club level is really simple, you just have to pick the right class(es).  I totally agree on the finals being a special race, a type of bonus for the riders that have supported us all season long.

Our rules work fine for keeping the Pros out of our finals.  Rapp as an example cannot run them, he could run at the event in the National Challenge Series races he ran at Barber but that would only get him some points and not a Championship.  

I don't see an equitable solution to keep pros from coming to the local club races for some extra money.  I also don't really see a need and based on this thread alone most riders don't mind the occasional club race.  If they do it all the time then they are club racers and should get a shot at the final like anyone else.  

So basically - a system for qualifying for the ROC would cure the ills that started this thread and it really doesn't have much to do with Pro's or non Pro's at all...

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

So basically - a system for qualifying for the ROC would cure the ills that started this thread and it really doesn't have much to do with Pro's or non Pro's at all...

Yes.  Like I said last post, that one's been talked to death.  I really liked the idea of a regional champ starting with 65 points to add to 65 more if he won at Daytona.  It would keep pro poachers out of the ROC, because they couldn't be champion if they walked into the race without season points.
You mentioned selecting classes where the pros don't race.  What classes would those be?  In CCS, it would be Lightweight, the weird sportsman classes, and Formula Forty.  In WERA, even the light classes have Mark Junge on an SV.  I believe those would be the very classes you were dismissing earlier in this thread.
I doubt we'll ever agree on this issue.  I've stated it as many ways as I can.  If Mark Junge, Steve Rapp, Eric Bostrom or Valinteno Rossi wants to come race as a club level expert, then the price should be to relinquish their pro status and just race club events.  Not that they CAN'T race as a club level expert, just that they CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS.  And I do think it's about money.  What professional athlete in any sport would risk his money-making body by competing at a level below professional if it wasn't for the money?  An expert rider must fill out extra paperwork, meet additional criteria and pay extra money to get a pro license, so it is obviously a seperate catagory from expert.  In baseball, "Being sent back to the minors" is a punishment for poor performance.  Can you think of any other sports with a professional level where it is acceptable to climb back down the ladder and cherry pick on your off weekends?  
That's my opinion.  You don't have to agree with it, but if you disagree, then tell me why experts aren't allowed to enter the amateur money races?  To me, it seems hypoctytical.  If pros can do it to experts, then experts can do it to amateurs, right?

[Super Dave]

K3 Chris Onwiler wrote
I've been asked to come up with a definition of pro.  Here's my take on it.  I don't know how WERA does it, but FUSA and AMA require a special license to be a competitor.  If you licence as a pro and run those races, you would be ineligable to run club races with experts that year....

To paraphrase the comments of several posts on this thread, it is clear that many of us feel that Expert  club level racing is still "Amateur Racing," as opposed to Pro racing....

I had mentioned previously that racers too experienced for amateur and not willing or able to race at the level of pro riders feel a bit squeezed with the current "catch-all" status of expert.

Mongo wrote
Except the money part, the vast majority of riders fade out after a couple of years, and most of them never reach Expert status much less get burned out because of who they are racing against.  Not having to race against the pros at the club level is really simple, you just have to pick the right class(es).

Good points guys.

First, I stated before that club road racing I believe is loosly defined as "sportsman pro/am racing".  It is really racing for the racer, not really a spectator event.  Additionally, it's not really meant for a way for the racers to make a living.  

To make it that a "pro" license holder cannot club race would be disasterous.  Well, I've had a FUSA license for some time, so you'd have to count me out.  Bill Hitchcock couldn't come because he had an AMA Pro license so he could get into the AMA races easily.  Ed Key couldn't have came because he runs Thunderbike.  Count out Mark Stiles.  How about Dan Doty?  

The disaster would be that either you would have people that never return to road racing after a one off "pro" stint, or they never try to go pro.  

I think that having riders that last only two years is terrible.  It's been that way for years also.  I think Kurt Hall was the first guy to tell me that number.  If it hasn't changed, which it hasn't, why can't something be changed at the organizational level?  Mongo and Kevin (who hasn't chimed in, but that doesn't mean he isn't watching), this would be for you.  

Over five seasons, I've worked to take riders into my school and teach them some things that keeps them from getting burned out.  Doesn't neccessarily work on the brand new racer as they usually listen to the people that are the closest to them it seems.  By far, my biggest and most regular school customers are current amateur and expert road racers.  If they keep racing beyond the two year cycle that is regular, the whole industry of racing is served.

How?  Well, first, you actually get more knowledgeable racers out there that spend money over a longer period of time.  Good for the racing organization, good for the tire guys, etc.

Second, with all the "stupid" two year amateurs out there that proliferate the regular motorcycling population, you'll actually have people that stay in it longer with more knowledge to pass to the people that don't know anything.  Honestly, how much time do most people that race pretty regularly have to talk about their experiences with regular riders?  Not much.  You talk to your racing friends.  

Third, with the two year racers proliferating racing, who wants to sponsor any regular racer?  Again, if a dealership actually decides that a one year amateur that turns expert is worth giving cash to, but then he races that one year, does poorly and quits...what kind of a representation of the sport is that?