National/ Pro Riders Stealing the Ex Championsh

[Super Dave]

Conclusions?

Is it a bad thing to have people go away after two years?  Yes.  What to do.

Here's my take, and here's why.  First, I'm unique in that I've raced from Pomona to Loudon, from Steamboat to Robeling, from Laguna to Daytona, from Phoenix to Road Atlanta.  I've done AMA, CRA, WERA, AHRMA, MRA, CMRA...NESBA, STT, Hammer...everything from 125 GP bikes to GSXR1100 superbikes.  I'm poor, and I've never had a lot of money, not to say that I've spent wisely all the time.  So, I've seen it all come and go as a racer, not from the rules and adminstration side.  Not that you, Mongo, and Kevin Elliot don't recognize things, but I do have a real perspective of trying to get sponsors, pay my racing bills, and things that give me stress in the middle of the night that you would not have to really think about.

Every rider should have a reasonable opportunity to enter into the sport simply and easily.  There are licensing schools coming out of the yin yang everywhere.  People come, but they don't race.    

Why?  First, the outward appearance of amateur racing is that there are sand baggers.  True or not true?  In my opinion, very true.  When I started out, we all wanted out of the "novice" class so that we could try to make Suzuki Cup Money.  The guy I started with was a novice for one year before going expert, I had to do two years.  I was disappointed, but I worked harder.  Currently, there are riders that retain their amateur status for years.

"Amateur" racing should be a beginning stage of racing where you are able to ride anything reasonable and learn something, even though that might only be through just being around it.  Limited classes, with a maximum time limit for being in the class...180 mos?  Most guys will bump to the next class relatively quickly, but some people, for various reasons, might take longer.  I'm sure everyone has seen the noob amateur that really struggles.

Next, after a period of time, there should be another level of licensing.  This would be where the largest population of recreational racers should be.  Notice the term I used..."recreational racers".  Really everyone races for fun, but it's still fun to ride with guys that you actually compete with.  If you're a guy on a budget and you start out racing with a Yamaha FZR400 in amateur lightwieght Supersport/stock or something.  You do ok, you have fun.  You get bumped to expert, now you have to "race" Ed Key or Bradley Champion.  When I got bumped to expert, I had to race Scott Russell.  It didn't bother me, but I think it might bother and potentially intimidate most racers.

So, what to do?  A new classification would be for most of your upper level amateur racers that have been racing for a period of time and some expert riders.  These riders SHOULD be the life blood of most organizations.  They enter a good number of races, they come to some regular number of events, and their final finishing postion is not necessarily the most important thing to them.  They are there to have fun, but they don't want to feel in the way or like second class riders...yeah, I know they are the second class in this set up, but...

More classes to race but keep it fun.

Next, the upper level class.  Do you call it pro?  Nah, I don't thing so, but it should be for the guys that are trying to be faster, remain faster, or are trying to move up.  I've done this for a long time, so this class is for me, it's probably the next stepping stone for a guy like Benji Thornton who's gonna try to do something bigger.  Would a guy like K3 want to be in this class?  Might want to if things worked out right, but he might not.

[Super Dave]

What would the gain be for running in the higher classification?  Purse money.  Drawbacks?  Fewer classes, higher entry fees, and potentially faster riders to compete against.  Is it an ending destination for a rider?  Probably not necessarily.  I can see where a rider may try that class but feels that the class below is more appropriate.  In the midwest, we had a rider that was an expert in 2002 move back to amateur for 2003.  He did really well as an amatuer.  What kind of a message does that send a guy that comes to the Learning Curves school on Saturday and tries to race on Sunday?


Honestly, amateur racing, the classification, is out of control if you ask me.  All to often, I hear about the previous years of experience that some winners of ROC and the GNF have.  How fair is that?  Kind of goes back to the "if you followed the series" problem again:  follow the whole region's races and you get rewarded with being bumped to expert in two years.  Mess around and hit various races with different organizations, different regions, and you can make a splash in the amateur finals...lots of press...after being a six year amateur.  I'm not saying that it happens all the time, but it does happen with some regularity.

Am I the only one that sees this need for three classifications and how it would help the racing, the organizations, etc?

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

Am I the only one that sees this need for three classifications and how it would help the racing, the organizations, etc?

     I have a couple questions Dave. Would your license reflect what level racer you were? Would level 3 racers still be able to compete in level 2 races? Would level 2 racers be able to compete in level 3 races, and if so what stops the whole situation of a true level 3 racer getting licensed as a level 2 and also doing level 3 races as well? I realize that there are different reward structures for level 2 and 3, but I bet you would still see quite a bit of racing in level 2 by level 3 racers if allowed to do so (and since that means more entry fees paid, I would imagine they would be allowed to).

     Just trying to identify any points of controversy.

[Super Dave]

Good question, Mike.

No, the races would be exclusive to the licensing option.

I would see myself as a level three guy.  Yeah, I'm pretty recreational, but I can still do some decent laps, right?  And the purse would be attractive.  The bump to level three would almost have to be by personal preference.  

A rider that can go pretty quick could get some amount of return in level three racing.  Surely, the level two riders will still be very, very quick, but there wouldn't be the need to expend a great amount of risk or huge expense for more trophy only type programs, right?

I don't have all the answers on this but...

Then someone would have to adapt the program, also.

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

Good question, Mike.

No, the races would be exclusive to the licensing option.

I would see myself as a level three guy.  Yeah, I'm pretty recreational, but I can still do some decent laps, right?  And the purse would be attractive.  The bump to level three would almost have to be by personal preference.  

A rider that can go pretty quick could get some amount of return in level three racing.  Surely, the level two riders will still be very, very quick, but there wouldn't be the need to expend a great amount of risk or huge expense for more trophy only type programs, right?

I don't have all the answers on this but...

Then someone would have to adapt the program, also.

     Another possibility could be to let level 2 racers race in level 3 to test themselves against the faster guys, but without being allowed to collect any winnings there (trophies, contingencies, or purse) unless they formally get their license upgraded to level 3.

[Super Dave]

No, you can't have it both ways.

Want to test and compare?  Check your lap times from your own race and compare them to the other.  You make the decision from there.

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

My suggestion was that a rider should choose.  Everyone plans their year in advance.  Decide to be a pro or a club level expert before the season starts, buy the appropriate liscense, and enter the appropriate races.  If you find the pro series not to your liking, you could sign up as an expert the following year and race at club level.  Even Rossi or Bostrom could race as an expert, but that would mean he couldn't also race pro that season.  This would keep club racing for the club racers, and if retired pros wanted to come race with us, they would be welcome!
I've never won money as an expert.  That's OK.  Faster guys got the cash, and they deserved it.  But when I was an amateur, there was always someone to race with.  When I had a bone stock FZR, I raced my heart out for 15th place.  When I got better and built a competitive bike,  I raced my heart out for the podium.  This year as an expert, I raced nobody.  I had one good dice all year.  Not much excitement for a 16 round season, and my racecraft suffered.  Expert grids with five to eight riders meant that I got left by some, left others, and rode around lonely for eight laps.  Boring!
I really think that the current expert class puts off many riders.  I didn't want to move up.  I did it because I had achieved success as an amateur and felt that I needed to leave that opportunity to those coming up behind me.  I moved from Lightweight to Heavyweight this season, as well as moving from amateur to expert.  If I had stayed a Heavyweight amateur, there would have been several riders who would have kicked my butt, and many more to dice with.  
Was I well served by becoming an expert?  No.  In my case, it took the fun right out of racing.  Right now I'm trying to justify the time and money to fun ratio and convince myself to continue racing.  Many who have faced this issue before me have quit.  (I know this to be true, because many of these guys were my friends and mentors.  Now that I'm expert, they're gone, and I was really looking forward to racing against them.)  I really love this sport, but one more year like this and I'll probably be gone too.  Since my situation is by no means unique, I feel that something should be done, if only from a buisness standpoint.  That has been my motivation for participating in this thread as extensively as I have.

[Super Dave]

Chris, but making riders make a decision to do club racing or pro racing will do several things.  First, it will not make the competition easier.  If you require someone with a "pro" license, and I have that in quotes becuase it is only a points and purchasing thing...it still doesn't make anyone money, to only do "pro" races, not club events, they will have to make a decision.  If you're a guy like Dan Doty or myself, well, I don't think either of us have a whole lot of money, I'm gonna have to choose staying close to home for business reasons.  To go do AMA pro for a season, you're gonna need about $70k.  FUSA is cheaper, but the press is different too.  Additionally, now that you have a pro license, now, under your proposal, I have no set up time at all.  I can't do a local race to work on anything.  Meanwhile, Mladin and Yates have gone to Malaysia to test their new bike or something.  

Decisions will be made.  Potentially, guys will just stay really really fast club racers.  I'm sure Larry Denning would just do his Yamaha racing at the club level.  Considering that he does 1:09's at Blackhawk and holds a few more lap records, it doesn't change anything for him or for you.

Fun out of racing?  Yeah, it happens.  In 1989 I would have been better off selling everything and putting my money in a CD a 1% interests.  Or maybe going into farming, another business where to make a small fortune, you start with a large one.

Chris, ultimately, you know that it's the deep friendships that keep us involved.  Sometimes, you have to step back and regroup, change things, etc.  Often times that first year as an expert has a lot of growing pains.  Can't explain where they come from...high expectations, too many bike changes, weather, luck, etc.  Those were many of my problems in 1989.  I made a decision.

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

OK, Dave.  I'd really like your opinion.
I'm not going to name names, because that would be kind of mean and unfair to them.  Since you and I are both midwest racers, you know the guys I'm talking about.  How many racers have you seen dissapear who you knew still had plenty of money to race?  These guys were pretty good, and they did fairly well.  They're awesome people, and those "Deep Friendships" that you speak of continue over the phone or in person, even though the guys don't come around the track any more.
Basically, they just got discouraged.  I'm feeling it too.  I could go back to racing amateur and have Ike, Stumpy, Simon, Steviebee, Benji and others whip me up one side and down the other, with new heros arriving daily.  But I'd be a part of some competition, and I'd have more fun.  Surely I'd get faster.  As an expert, what do I have to look forward to?  Eventually being passed by the fastest amatuers in a two wave race?  Woo Hoo!  Excuse me if I'm underwhelmed.
Look at the competition I faced last year.  Those guys were awesome, and our every race together was one worth watching.  I'd like to go back to amateur, if only to find some competition.  Until I can hang with you, Jessie, Purk, Gorden and Tez, I've got no one to race with.  And the less wheel-to-wheel racing I do, the less proficient I become.  I might as well be doing track days.
CCS needs to find a place for the average rider who can no longer be an amateur.  I really believe that this is costing motorcycle racing many, many participants. (i.e. customers)  As my teacher, guru and buddy, how many times did I discuss this very thing with you over the season?  Where are my rivals from last year?  All gone.  I'm the only one who stayed.  Why?  Doesn't this problem bode ill for CCS and racing in general?  I'd really like to help fix it, because racing is my main passion in life, and I can't imagine life without it.  

[Super Dave]

OK, Dave.  I'd really like your opinion.

Basically, they just got discouraged.  I'm feeling it too.

But I'd be a part of some competition, and I'd have more fun.  Surely I'd get faster.  As an expert, what do I have to look forward to?

CCS needs to find a place for the average rider who can no longer be an amateur.

Doesn't this problem bode ill for CCS and racing in general?  I'd really like to help fix it, because racing is my main passion in life, and I can't imagine life without it.  

I think you're hitting it on the head.  

Mongo, feel free to chime in...Kevin too if you're out there "listening".

The racing organizations spend a good deal of money trying to get people in, only to see them leave after two years.  The trend is continuing.  At times, race entries are down.  Meanwhile, track days continue to flourish.  

When I started racing, there were no track days.  

Additionally, when I started racing, I believe the median age of racers was in the twenties, where it is now in the mid thirties.

As a racer, I see little done to try to attract me in to remaining in a series.  CCS doesn't reward my continued appearance in a series with good grids or any minor pay out at the end of the year.  I could take it or leave it depending upon where I wanted to race.  What has kept me doing is has been my school program, in spite of the lack of understanding from Blackhawk Farms or who ever in CCS's organization decided that my dates were the ones they needed.  

So, Chris, yeah, you would be perfect for the ideas of a three tiered structure in "club" or Pro/Am racing.  

Will anyone do it?  I can't say.

I haven't made the proposal myself.  I'm kind of tired of giving my input;  it doesn't seem to go too far, and occasionally, you don't feel appreciated in being right anyway.

The fuel rules are just a representative problem.  Maybe I should leave those in place just so I can bust everyone...LOL.  

Racing is my life too, so I understand your passion.  I work really hard to help racers make sense of things.  But certainly the racers don't get asked by the racing organizations what they can do...guess we all must be just customers.

[Frank_Angel]

As you would not let the experts poach the amateur trophies and money, you should not let the pros poach from the experts.

Chris, good points, but a bit unrealistic. There are plenty of guys that have been experts who have come back with yellow plates after some time off and won "amateur" championships. That's poaching just as much, IMHO.

[Super Dave]

I don't know if there have been plenty.  In our neck of the woods, they all have been amateurs until this years deal.