National/ Pro Riders Stealing the Ex Championsh

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

Chris, good points, but a bit unrealistic. There are plenty of guys that have been experts who have come back with yellow plates after some time off and won "amateur" championships. That's poaching just as much, IMHO.

I agree.  Basically, I moved to expert because I'd had success there, and it was time to leave it to the new arrivals.  I don't want to go back.  But what I've seen this year in expert is that there are four or five expert guys who can hang with a pro if one shows up.  Then there's me and one or two other guys.  That's the whole expert grid.  The fast guys leav, and by lap two my race is over.
There were a bunch of amateurs this year with lap times quicker than mine, and many more behind them running at my pace.  If the fastest amateurs caught me in a two wave race, I let them go rather than ruin their race by racing with them.  If I'd been an amateur, I have had people to race with.
I don't want to poach one single amateur trophy or contingency dollar.  I've had mine.  But I'd like to be able to race with guys running my speed.  I can't even race amateurs with a clear concience, because I remember how frustrating it was as an amateur to get a slower expert caught up in our fight.  
I'd like to think that I'll get faster and join the battle out front.  But right now I'm riding alone in a void.  Ironically, I'm getting trophies for it too!  I'll get a fourth or a fifth, and there won't be a soul in front or behind as far as the eye can see.  That's kind of hollow.  I'd rather give up the trophy and have someone to race with.

[oldguy]

K3, you can come over to Pittsburgh (Beaverun) track days and kick my a** around the track  ;D  ;D
Seriously, though, what are the benefits of endurance racing? Doesn't strategy play an important part of the race, as well as different rider skills? Sprint racing is fun if its a level field, but I'm not sure it is. Remember when I wanted to ride my tricked out RC in the F40 race and I couldn't because I had slicks, aftermarket wheels, brakes, forks, yadda', yadda'? So I ride the SV instead, get my butt handed to me and after the race, who rolls in behind me on the MV Agusta with slicks on? None other than a team owner I guess; but a known regular at BHF. I "should" have rolled the RC up to the grid and argued about it IF it came up.
That's OK, now I know how the game is played and "I'll be back" [Schwartzenegger voice] ;D

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

Endurance racing? :D  Why do you bring that up Doug?  Looking for a partner? ;)  You have my E mail address...

[Super Dave]

So I ride the SV instead, get my butt handed to me and after the race, who rolls in behind me on the MV Agusta with slicks on? None other than a team owner I guess; but a known regular at BHF. I "should" have rolled the RC up to the grid and argued about it IF it came up.
That's OK, now I know how the game is played and "I'll be back" [Schwartzenegger voice] ;D

LOL, Johnny "Reno" on the MV.  Did he screw up and run it with slicks?  Team owner, no, but he infused some cash into the program he was hanging with.  

[Bernie]

There were a bunch of amateurs this year with lap times quicker than mine, and many more behind them running at my pace.  I'd rather give up the trophy and have someone to race with.

Sounds like you'll have some folks to race with next year when those amatuers get promoted to expert. ;)  Unless they sandbag it and petition to stay amateur.  I'm in the same boat.  Too bad you're not in the MA, at least I'd have someone to race with. ;D

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

Sounds like you'll have some folks to race with next year when those amatuers get promoted to expert. ;)  Unless they sandbag it and petition to stay amateur.  I'm in the same boat.  Too bad you're not in the MA, at least I'd have someone to race with. ;D

I just want to share your sponsorship.  I need a cool James Bond bike.  If a pro punts me then, RAT A TAT RAT A TAT RAT A TAT!! ;D
Curse you Red Baron!

[oldguy]

Maybe you need a tow vehicle like this to intimidate the opposition!

[Mongo]

Chris - what is discouraging to these riders that you're talking about?  Not winning or as you say is your case, not having anyone to run with?

It sounds like it's probably the former because I think you siad that you've run with them in the past and they've run with each other so finding a race within a race wouldn't be the problem.

[r6_philly]

I have left it alone for a while. I orginally posted that we should have a different leveling system to stop the sandbagging and thinning of the expert field.

My season is over. I have way enough points to move to EX. I tasted some sucess this year, in a very competitive region where AM grids are usually full.

So I am planning my next year. I decided to do FUSA only. The idea of running by myself for 7 laps after the leading experts have left is NOT appealing. So I am spending money to ride around by myself? I can do track days for free man...

So even though I am not quite fast enough, I am going to do the FUSA races. Less weekends, less money (yes it is) more track time, and have some people to race with. And more chance to get better.

So CCS has kind of just lost my entry fees for 16 weekends to 8, and I am only racing 2 classes. How much money did CCS, the vendors and everyone else just lost?

I don't want to stay AM. I want to move forward, step up and get somewhere and do somethings. But many of us fast AM's doesn't quite have the drive and determination as me.

My teammate is dreading racing EX next year. He does not want to stay AM(too dangerous, not right), but not quite as fast as me. So he is going to be left by a lot of EX, including me maybe. So he will be in the back, of a small grid. Sometimes this year we have 6 people racing the EX CCS sportbike race that pays to 10th place! while AM MWSS have 50 on the grid.

Experts are rare. only 1-2 fast AM's from 2002 raced a big portion of this season. Names I am so used to are no longer on scoring sheets. I think if my teammater does poorly next year, and end up racing by himself a lot, he is going to scale back or quit all together. I would continue to improve until I can keep up with the front guys, or forever (well...) trying, but he is not going to.

So in my conclusion, if the fast guys can be in level 3 competiting for cash and more, then level 2 is open to slower ex's and fast AM's for trophies, some payback and giggles, then we would all have a place to race. They can stay there as long as they wish, without controvesy.

So how about this...
level 3:
GT races with purse
ULGP with purse
sportbike with purse
thunderbike with purse

Level 2:
GT races with purse
all other classes without purse, but contigency

level 1
GT races no purse
1 LW/MW/HW class each plus F40, 1 sportsman class
no purse, less contigency

I don't think it make sense to have all the AM classes anyway. most of us race all the classes with the same bike, and the modification allowences dont really make much difference in laptime in AM ranks anyway...

And when FUSA comes to town, the level 3 combines with FUSA classes.

this set up, level 3 races can compete for money in at least 2 races each weekend. Fast guys usually dont want to risk their equipment in a lot of races anyway, and we can make the races a little longer.

Level 2 will give all kinds of options for club racers to race, lots of races, and some rewards.

level 1 will get you in the door, and if you want more, move up after a certain amount of experiences. Most noobs only enter 2-3 races a weekend anyway, and they wont complain the limited amount of races available to them.

And by cutting some classes, we will have enough time to get all theses races in every weekend.

What do you think?

[blew_bayou]

as a 42 year old former race car driver and am motocross racer looking in.I have been wanting to road race for a long time and have been looking at both wera and ccs boards for the past couple of months to learn as much as i can. so here is my outside take on this subject.
   first off this form of racing is the first that i have seen where a person can race one race all year and win a national championship..it should not be that way. racers work very hard all year long to acheive goals in season championships,not just on the race track but hours and hours of preparation the week before.i would work 3 or 4 nights on week on my car or bike. I feel that to be eligable to win a national championship,you should participate in a majority of your regional races or be in the top 5 . i feel it degrades all the other competitors when someone just comes in and takes it away.
    as far as competition goes,your always going to have fast guys and slow ones, racers that have top notch equiptment and ones that dont.that is the way it is in all forms of racing. when i raced cars i didnt have the newest or the fastest, and couldnt afford $400 tires every week,but it was a 5-10 car and as long as i didnt wreck i broke even money wise.it was alot of fun. the first year finished 12 in championship,2nd year finished 8th. very proud of my trophys,they mean something because of hard work and alot of fun..Motorcycle racing doesnt come close to  breaking even .that is way i think championships should be worked for and respected.i dont see that here. maybe iam wrong.

[r6_philly]

which by the way, if the rules are as I stated, I will do the FUSA series and the CCS series in level 3, and my involvement will be the same as this year. And my teammate would probably stay in level 2, and always find competition. He does really care about the purses, but a little chance for success is always nice.

[WebCrush]

So I am planning my next year. I decided to do FUSA only. The idea of running by myself for 7 laps after the leading experts have left is NOT appealing. So I am spending money to ride around by myself? I can do track days for free man...

So even though I am not quite fast enough, I am going to do the FUSA races. Less weekends, less money (yes it is) more track time, and have some people to race with. And more chance to get better.

So CCS has kind of just lost my entry fees for 16 weekends to 8, and I am only racing 2 classes. How much money did CCS, the vendors and everyone else just lost?

Do you really think yer gonna have any more 'race' time running F/USA?  I ran the series this year and like most of my club races, I spent 90% by myself.

Also, CCS/Vendors really isn't loosing much money, but yer losing track time.  Its gonna cost you double in entry fees, use twice as much tire, etc.

Are you going to do the supporting CCS races at the F/USA rounds?

In the end, the only person you're hurting is yourself.

What I REALLY wanna know is why are experts so rare and why do they quit.  Sure, money is a reason, etc.  I'm willing to bet that they get tired of seeing the same names taking all the contingency, trophies, etc, etc.  

I've been doing this for 5 years now, and as much as I and other think we're gonna get better and catch the leaders, just about every MW/HW race in our series is/was won by Scott Greenwood or Jeff Wood (and/or Eric Wood if he races that weekend).  The only exception is if there is a big AMA event the same weekend and they don't show or its season end and the championships are already locked up.  These guys are even teamates so they coordinate which races they won't compete against each other.  We used to have Chouniard and Conboy but they finally kinda hung it up this year.  People don't even really look at results anymore--we all know who won, we hear the same names again and again and again that it almost becomes a joke.

Yes, these guys are fast.  But they're in a league of their own.  I mean, these guys run lap times that are usually 1-2 seconds faster than the 2nd place.  By the end of the race they have a good 10 second lead.  Now, they can't be enjoying just going out and obliterating everyone 6-7 times a weekend with no competition, etc.  They do it for the money, contingency, etc to support their F/USA or AMA plans.

There is no easy way to fix this.  We can bang out heads against the walls all day to try to add some ruling which would restrict top top top riders from grabbing all the loot. (ie--pro licenses, pro points, pro placing, more tier levels, income level, etc)

But lets be real.  CCS is an business, its not a club.  One thing I've definitely learned over the years is we have virtually no say.  Sure, there are channels for input--but they don't change anything.  CCS officials don't wish to add any wording to restrict entries, limit participants, let alone add more regulation or paperwork (or god forbid REAL work).  CCS learned it methods from AMA, we just have to either sit back and suck it up or vote with out wallets (won't help, there's always another wallet to replace ours).  Amatuers by us run 4-6 races a weekend.  Experts run 2, maybe 3.  Why would CCS want to change anything--they have a perfect business model!!  Let the experts leave and replace them with more profitable amatuers.

Face it--we're screwed.  I hope (and believe) both Kevin Elliot and Tiffany Ingram are lurking on this thread, because I'm very dissapointed in CCS in terms of management, communication, and fairness.  I find their 'pro series' F/USA to be a joke and hardly worth contending.  I hope the powers that be see this and find our discontentment concerning.  There are other shows in town (especially if yer in WERA regions).  

Anyway, I'll get off the soapbox.  We're getting off topic anyway (and back to it--Daytona ROC CCS events should be by invite only for those who have competed in MORE than 4 CCS events for the year)