National/ Pro Riders Stealing the Ex Championsh

[r6_philly]

Do you really think yer gonna have any more 'race' time running F/USA?  I ran the series this year and like most of my club races, I spent 90% by myself.

Also, CCS/Vendors really isn't loosing much money, but yer losing track time.  Its gonna cost you double in entry fees, use twice as much tire, etc.

Are you going to do the supporting CCS races at the F/USA rounds?

well I have been following race and qualifying times, there seems to be a few guys that I can race with in the FUSA races, more so than CCS races.

I am going to do 1-2 support races at combined events, and doing so allow me to practice twice a rotation plus some race set up time.

It actaully is not going to cost me any more money. I did at least 7 CCS races per weekend this year. I used just as many tires as I would racing the 2 FUSA races. and I am not going to loose track time, there are more practice groups to be in, there is qualifying, there is the long races. Instead of 2 pracitce session and 5 lap sprints.

It seems like a no win situation. We are not going to win. The business model is there ( I would question if it is a good one since CCS seem so desperately NOT profitable) so its up to us to fit ourselves in.

Yes there are other shows in town, but who are winning those races? I am not going to worry that greenwood, or wood, or whoever beats me because I should be going just as fast. If I can't keep up, I need to get better equipment, or I am just not that quick. Whats unfair about that? Maybe a little boring, but joy of racing shouldn't all come from winning the race. I do want to win the race, but I will be JUST AS SATISFIED if I just win the race against myself.

I guess I am a bad case study. I am going to press on racing no matter what, as long as I am able to. But I also hold concerns for the others and the whole industry. And not being to see familiar faces and know everyone at the track because they all quit kinda sucks.

I talk to at least 5 people who wants to start racing every track day. And those 5 people will hit the races once and I will only see 1 come back. And who knows about next year.

Mid-Atlantic is almost running out of comp. #'s. The roster is awefully long. But how come the turn out don't represent that? Why do people just come and race once a year. CCS, time to look at the numbers and try to make some more money. Good ole way isn't always the good way

[WebCrush]

Mid-Atlantic is almost running out of comp. #'s. The roster is awefully long. But how come the turn out don't represent that? Why do people just come and race once a year. CCS, time to look at the numbers and try to make some more money. Good ole way isn't always the good way

Well, I know myself and other northeast riders will go to Mid-A events early spring and late fall to make up for the cold weather we get up here.  We also have pretty much run out of numbers that many riders get Mid-A licenses and numbers instead.  Lots of guys renew their license and do one race every two years to retain their one/two digit number (a whole 'nother can of worms).

Good luck to ya in F/USA, maybe I'll see you out there.  I know in F/USA Superbike the grids were kind weak.  At Daytona I was top 10 when I crashed in the west horseshoe and although I got back up and finished (without getting lapped :D :D) I finished last--which was still 17th place.  I'd expert more competitors for a national event.

[r6_philly]

cool, hope to see ya on the grid. I am going to go to the spring Daytona again, and I think grids will be even weaker being fast guys that comes to ROC may not show for Daytona. I just love the bike week :) and that track...

Oh ya the numbering thing. I am trying very hard to get a double or single digit number  8) it just cost too much in numbers right now, and I don't think they will fit on my new bike  :D

I don't think that system will be reformed, I guess I just have to get lucky...

[StuartV666]

Okay, I'm going to break this down into chunks.

-- National Championships (and making them really mean what they should)

1) Give people points according to their best regional class placing. Regional champs start the race with 65 points, etc. down to the top 50 riders from each region. Give them points on the same schedule according to how they finish at the ROC. Thus, the maximum points a rider could have towards a National Championship is 130. Ties go to the person who finishes better at the ROC.

2) Grid by qualifying times. The point system gives people an appropriate advantage based on how they did during the season. Gridding by qualifying is, to me, the only truly fair way to award grid positions.

This system will eliminate the one-race "wonders" from showing up and winning National Championships. And it will eliminate the people who are fast, but not the fastest, but who can afford to show up at Daytona with Monster HP from winning National Championships. And it will reward the people who are fastest OVER A SEASON.

[StuartV666]

-- 3-tiered licensing

I don't think this will work.

1) There's few enough people racing now (in CCS). Splitting the groups up even more isn't going to make them more competitive within themselves. MOST of the Amateur grids are legitimate Amateurs. Meaning, moving to a 3-tiered system is not going to affect most of them. Which means, the top 2 tiers are each going to be smaller than the current Expert class. And though it might mean K3 Chris would have one or two more guys to actually dice with, I don't think it would have any significant impact on the number of guys who continue to race versus bailing after 2 years or so.

2) I definitely don't support the idea of saying that current AMA Pro license holders cannot run in Regional events. I would like to be able to enter one or two AMA events next year, just for the experience. I think I can make the qualifying cutoff for the 600 Supersport class at at least some of the tracks that are in my region, and I'd like to try. But that shouldn't prevent me from running the Regional events.

Besides the experience that will give me, I view it as a selling point in my approaches to potential local sponsors. "Yes, I (and your logo) will appear on TV 2 or 3 times this year."

I think you *could* possibly say "you cannot run in Regionals if you participate in 70% or more of the rounds of the AMA Pro series." IF (that's a big if) you could enforce that, I think it would eliminate the "true Pros". But, it would be really hard to enforce it. You'd have to be prepared to enact retro-active penalties, potentially at the end of the season, going all the way back to the beginning of the season. And you'd have to have cooperation from AMA Pro Racing, to get their entry lists, so you'd actually know who participated.

But I also think this whole subject is kind of moot. I don't recall any actual complaints about "Pros" particpating in Regionals (the ROC issue is separate). So why are we worrying about trying to eliminate them from Regionals??

3) It seems that the real problem to be addressed is that there isn't enough people (therefore, competition) running at the Expert level (in CCS - I don't perceive WERA to have this same issue. Maybe Mongo could share some insight with us on why that might be). Obviously, the solution is NOT to move people up more quickly. CCS already moves people up very (arguably, too) quickly.

And that brings up one possible solution. Copy WERA's rules for moving up. It would keep people Amateur longer, which means guys like Chris would stay longer (maybe) and have more fun. And the Expert ranks would be more competitive amongst themselves, thus, hopefully, keeping them around longer.

That's one idea. I don't happen to support it, myself, though. It's just an observation that WERA seems to have much bigger Expert grids, and they also have that difference in their rules, so MAYBE there is a correlation. Personally, I think CCS makes a little too easy to get moved up and WERA makes it too easy to stay Amateur/Novice.

My idea is to change the purse structure. Eliminate all Amateur purses (i.e. GT classes, Sportbike, and Unlimited GP). Make the Expert purses bigger. Make the contingencies for Amateurs smaller (but don't eliminate them - maybe keep the tire contingencies like they are and eliminate the rest), and the Expert ones bigger.

I think this would motivate people to move up and *want* to be Experts, and it would help make racing a little easier, money-wise, which might keep people around longer.

- Stu

[WebCrush]

of course there is always the LRRS method.

We already have three tiers, Am, JR, and EX.  unfortunately, since JR is only acknowledged at Loudon, no contingency money, have to run EX everywhere else, etc.

If CCS adopted the JR class (run as a 2nd wave with EX) across the board then they'd be in a better position to negotiate for contingency as well as have a place to run where they're not running amatuer but have time before going full blown expert.

[unforgivenracing]

I wouldnt mind going back down a level from expert, If I knew it would be more fun.  
  Seeing the same names at the top all the time does get a bit discouraging.  But in the end I dont think enything is going to help when your club will allow a pro/champion/from where ever come in for one race at the end of the season and take the glory away from the riders in that said club who have battled together for it all season.  To allow an outsider who is above the group level to take the prize from the ones that paid for it is just WRONG!  

  I think another way to prevent it from happening again (and I am sure it will) Is to watch for it and when it is going to happen, everyone in the race boycotts.  March right over to the officials and YELL!
Demand your entry fee back.  
It will get you more results.  You probubly will not like those results.  But at least it will produce A result.  And perhaps the Pro who was cutting in will get the Idea, and spread the word. Besides, If noone races, how can he race himself.  The negative feedback alone would be like that Cubs fan.   ;D

This was just a thought.............
  

[WebCrush]

I wouldnt mind going back down a level from expert, If I knew it would be more fun.    

Looking back, I actually think it WAS the most fun I had.  There weren't any cherry pickers since all the really fast guys were expert, and that left a bunch of guys who were 2nd rate (like myself) to race together.  I think I diced it out in every race I did as a JR.

Ironically, I only spent two weekends as a JR since I wanted to go EX since JR's weren't recognized anywhere else.

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

Chris - what is discouraging to these riders that you're talking about?  Not winning or as you say is your case, not having anyone to run with?

It sounds like it's probably the former because I think you siad that you've run with them in the past and they've run with each other so finding a race within a race wouldn't be the problem.

I don't know for absolutely sure, Mongo.  You can't really get inside another man's head.  But it seems to me that they didn't mind not winning as amateurs, but then as experts they found themselves alone at the back.  Soon they weren't coming around any more.
I remember when I started.  Not last was my goal.  Then top 15.  When I became a top 10 guy?  Wow!  Then there was my first top five, and so on.  All along I had people to battle with.  No one this year as an expert.  I wasn't fast enough to hang with the winners, and there were rarely more than 5-10 bikes in the field.
Honestly, I'd rather sign a waiver to not accept the trophies or money, and just go race amateur for the fun of it.  Hopefully some faster slow guys will make the jump to expert for 04, and I'll have some people to battle with and improve with like in my amateur days.

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

Also Mongo, see if this makes sense to you.  I know it to be true, because I've lived through it.
As an amateur, you look up to the experts.  Now some guys will right away be all about trying to beat them from the back row of the amateur grid.  I saw Jesse Janich do that.  Wow.  But the other 80% of us see the talent that rules expert, be it pro or local club racer, and we just know that we'll probably never be that good.  So what do we do?  We hang out as amateurs for as long as we can, and then we quit.  So many of my friends have gone this route.  I'm hanging in there, but perhaps only because I'm addicted.  Heroin users continue to shoot up long after they stop enjoying the drug, and these days that's kind of how I feel.
Reguardless of their motivation, when you've got fourth and fifth year riders walking away in droves, isn't it bad for buisness?  Maybe the middle-fast guys need their own class to duke it out in before they become top-fast guys.  Some guys get there in a week, some in five years, and some never.  Should there be a middle class, based on lap times?  It might keep more people interested for a longer period, and it might keep certain bikes competitive longer.
I'm just throwing ideas out here.  As you had mentioned earlier, this thread has gone off it's original topic.  But then again, the entire point of discussion, conversation and debate is to let multiple minds work together to evolve ideas and solve problems.

[Eddie#200]

Racing is just that RACING...

I don't want to sound harsh...but...

It's the same in auto racing, airplane racing and submarine racing.  I've watched all of them... there is always going to someone that is better than everyone else.   ;D

If you can't get it together and run with the fast guys... and are a 5th year amateur, perhaps racing bikes isn't the thing for you.

If you run well enough to be a pain to the fastest guys, keep up the good work.  ;D

[Super Dave]

Yes, these guys are fast.  But they're in a league of their own.  I mean, these guys run lap times that are usually 1-2 seconds faster than the 2nd place.  By the end of the race they have a good 10 second lead.  Now, they can't be enjoying just going out and obliterating everyone 6-7 times a weekend with no competition, etc.  They do it for the money, contingency, etc to support their F/USA or AMA plans.

There is no easy way to fix this.  We can bang out heads against the walls all day to try to add some ruling which would restrict top top top riders from grabbing all the loot. (ie--pro licenses, pro points, pro placing, more tier levels, income level, etc)

Ok, I was going to be off this one but...

People are human.  

This is a competition.

If you're not good enough, work to get better.  Eric, Jeff, Scott, Des, and all those guys and every guy that was fast before them tries to learn new things every year.  They shouldn't be punished for working hard and trying to reap any minor reward that they can get.  

In 1999, I ran the NASB race at Loudon.  I've only been to Loudon once before in 1993 and I earned a spot in "...And They Walked Away, Part IV" from that experience.  

Anyway, I knew that Eric was fast.  Expected others to be fast.  Met Scott Greenwood that weekend.  He helped me around the track a bit.  Still, I kept working on set up, changes, fuel, etc. all the time I was there.  Didn't win, but I expect to come out to Loudon in 2004 for FUSA and do better.  They could bring Doug Polen out and I wouldn't care.  I still want to beat him, and I expect myself to try and potentially do it every time out.  That's racing.