National/ Pro Riders Stealing the Ex Championsh

[GAMEDIC]

"ps. on National Championships. I've said this before. Why not take a cue from WERA and make it Invitation-only? Only the top 10 from each region. And move it to a venue like Road Atlanta"

How about Barber?  "By invitation only"--  Has a good ring to it.


Doug

Yeah but the cost of it would keep them from it only letting top 10 would not make them enough money after paying staff and the track

[Dawn]

I have a 17 year old and just couldn't imagine her finding anything entertaining or useful on the race boards at that age.  

Oooops!  Off subject again!   ;D

Our daughter tells me to leave when it's time to put the rains on Paul's bike.  That's HER job to help dad.  The kid can't stand a lady bug in her hair, but allow her to get grease under her finger nails or help fix body work, she's right there.  Renee really is facinated with how things work.

She's such a gear head...  I'm in sooooo much trouble when she starts to drive.  

Dawn   ;D

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

"ps. on National Championships. I've said this before. Why not take a cue from WERA and make it Invitation-only? Only the top 10 from each region. And move it to a venue like Road Atlanta"

How about Barber?  "By invitation only"--  Has a good ring to it.Doug

     A couple of possible obstacles would be the timing of the event at Barber and the top 10 situation. The weather during the ROC in Florida is usually good, but you do have the awful hotel costs during Biketoberfest.

     I am a good example of the top 10 situation not being the best situation either. I am top 10 regionally in 4 different classes across 3 regions (total of 12 classes), yet I was one of the slowest racers on the track this year! Not saying that I can't go fast, I just chose not to this year. I was even winning a number of regional class championships before I decided to back off and let others have them. For me I had 2 front row grid positions and my furthest back was the 3rd row at the ROC this year.

     Often times the fastest racers are not the ones that win the championships, but instaed the racers that were consistent all season and didn't miss any races. Using the Performance Index could help to fix this situation, but it also depends on how many races that racer attended. Some people just smoke everyone at a few tracks and then do OK at others. If some of the racers only raced the events they did good at then they would have a great P/I. I definately think your entire season should apply to the overall P/I, not just the races you did good at. To add a little twist to what others have been saying about racing with the pro guys, a truely good racer does well at ALL tracks, not just select ones! To figure in the events that some people don't attend just take the P/I from a particular class for all the events that person attended during the season and divide it by the total number of events in that region. So if you had a 10 race schedule, and raced 7 of those events, and won every race, you would have a 1000 P/I in the current format. If you averaged in the 3 races not attended, the P/I would now be 700 for the season (7 race wins would be; 1000 + 1000 + 1000 + 1000 + 1000 +1000 + 1000 = 7000 total P/I. Now take 7000 and divide it by 10 - which was the total number of events in the season. 7000/10 = 700 P/I average for the season). As a couple people have said, Expert level isn't for beginers, so step up to the plate and race the whole season! (or pay a penalty with your P/I for not racing the whole season)

     Something that may be being overlooked though is the fact that technically the ROC already IS an invitation only event, that is if everyone showed up! The only reason that non top 10 racers get to race at the ROC is because so many top 10 racers don't show up. So what would be different if the current gridding system was changed? You may eliminate the 1 event racers from showing up, but the grids sure would be small based on the current attendance of top 10 racers. I can only imagine how much entry fees would be then!

[Dawn]

Paul, if he went, he would have been on pole all weekend (first place in three regions) in the amatuer LW superbike and supersport classes.  He would have been a prime canidate for an invitation.  However he was out of vacation time, so we didn't go.  

So there you go....  A prime example of a top 10 rider not showing up.   :-/

Dawn   ;)

[J-Janisch]

Now personally I don't really care which way this whole things goes.  But after reading this whole post for like the past hour I have my own idea, if you guys like it well then good, if you don't then say something about it.

Why not have a series in a series.  Now I'm using the Midwest/Great Plains/Great Lakes; as an example only because I know all the tracks.  So why not have a Series of Qualifyers for ROC.  You must go to lets say;  Gingerman, Gateway, and Blackhawk once during the season.  Doesn't matter where you finish but if you do those 3 races once in the year, then you can go and race at ROC.  

Talk amounst yourselves........

My little idea

[GAMEDIC]

That's Kinda how WERA does it .. either you run your regional racesand do good and get an invite or you have to run at least one national race during ther year

[Photo_Chick]

Now personally I don't really care which way this whole things goes.  But after reading this whole post for like the past hour I have my own idea, if you guys like it well then good, if you don't then say something about it.

Why not have a series in a series.  Now I'm using the Midwest/Great Plains/Great Lakes; as an example only because I know all the tracks.  So why not have a Series of Qualifyers for ROC.  You must go to lets say;  Gingerman, Gateway, and Blackhawk once during the season.  Doesn't matter where you finish but if you do those 3 races once in the year, then you can go and race at ROC.  

Talk amounst yourselves........

My little idea

And you have such good ideas!  I think you may be on to something.

[Photo_Chick]

Oooops!  Off subject again!   ;D

Our daughter tells me to leave when it's time to put the rains on Paul's bike.  That's HER job to help dad.  The kid can't stand a lady bug in her hair, but allow her to get grease under her finger nails or help fix body work, she's right there.  Renee really is facinated with how things work.

She's such a gear head...  I'm in sooooo much trouble when she starts to drive.  

Dawn   ;D

You have your hands full!  She sounds like a great kid and from her posts she sounds like she knows a lot more than some of the racers!  LOL

[Super Dave]

One is the subject of what a National Championship is, or should be. And the other is the subject of classes of racers.

Regarding National Championships, I think Dafan is on the right track. I think it would be more meaningful (and we'd all be happier) if it reflected a seaon's efforts and not just one race's results.

That means what some of you are arguing for is really a 3rd class of license. Amateur, Expert, and Pro. With a 3-tier system, you would not allow Experts to race in AM races and you wouldn't allow Pros to race in EX races. But that's not what we have.

If the objective is to eliminate being beaten by "money" (i.e. factory-level spending), how about instituting a claiming rule? Make it where any of the top 5 finishers bikes can be purchased by any other competitor for 15% over MSRP for that model (like AMA Pro Racing sorta has in Supersport). That will eliminate the Rapps, Vesrahs, etc..

National Championships.  That's a hard one.  Regional championships are for those who want to go race a series for their championship.  Next step, race FUSA or WERA National Series.  Even if you make it by invitation only, you still run the risk of the guy that is at the bottom winning the national championship.  

Jesse has a good point...qualifiers.  I know WERA did this in 1988 when I was a "novice".  I raced one qualifier so that I could go to the GNF.  Problem was that the closest one was 600 miles from my house.  The others were further.  So, if you were closer to all the other qualifying races, you could have a better opportunity at going to the GNF.

Central location always has me baffled.  Again, if were talking about a National Championship run off:  SCCA, CCS, WERA...Location shouldn't matter that much.  Hotels will catch on if there is a big event in town regardless of the location and charge accordingly.  There is a certain amount of Tradition in the locations as they are.  That is undeniable.  Even for AMA Superbike races, there is a huge amount of tradition in locations and dates.  I'm not saying that I love the 1300 mile one way drive to Daytona, but I expect that that is the location for the CCS finale.  Same goes for the 900 mile one way trip to the GNF.  I know where it's at.  

Suzuki Cup Final one year was held at Riverside or someplace in California.  I remember that it ended up raining.  Don't remember if it was poorly attended or what.

Licensing?  Yeah, there might be room for a three tier system.  I've talked about that before on this board.  An amateur class for true amateurs, with no championships.  A stepping stone, or permanant sportsman, category for those who only enjoy racing, etc.  Yes, championships, but purse money would not be allowed.  And a Pro class.  Would have to have a purse for each race.  If you're gonna call them "pros", you'd want them to fight to make a living, but still allow them to get some kind of a return.  I think it would be good, but it would require a huge amount of work.  Additionally, the PRO TEAMS would need to put in some time too for the show to make it more of an event that would be attractive for a spectator to see.

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

 An amateur class for true amateurs, with no championships.  A stepping stone, or permanant sportsman, category for those who only enjoy racing, etc.  Yes, championships, but purse money would not be allowed.  And a Pro class.  Would have to have a purse for each race.  If you're gonna call them "pros", you'd want them to fight to make a living, but still allow them to get some kind of a return.

Makes sense to me.  And if an Amateur like Benji or Jessie wanted to go directly to pro, that would be an allowable choice.  This would leave a place open for guys like me who just love to race.  
No offense Mongo, but it would seem that your attitude is "fight your way to world champion or go home."  For every young lion who comes into this sport dreaming that dream, there are dozens of guys who didn't get to start racing until their familys and careers were established.  It seems to me that if you ignore the hobby racer, before long you won't have a racing series.

[Mongo]

If we ignored the hobby racer we'd have gone out of business a long time ago and not mde it successfully for 30 years...

The vast majority of our racers who run for fun understand that this is racing and the fast guys win.  It's only a very small minority that seem to think we should start breaking things down so that everyone gets a National Championship.  

I still don't understand getting in to competitive motorsports and expecting to only run against people just as fast as you but nobody faster.  

[WebCrush]

Think of it this way--CCS is supposed to be like a grassroots org in the world of M/C racing.

Don't you think at some point you have to cut the grass?